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Benajmin Bloom's Overview of the -12 Verdict

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3 minutes ago, DSandersonOWL said:

The guilty verdict and 12 point deduction comes from the tribunal but not clear where the deferral to next season comes from. Always a good idea to mistrust the word 'independent' anyway.  

According to the Daily Mirror: 

'Had the EFL elected to impose the deduction now, taking it away from their 2019-20 total, then they (Sheffield Wednesday) would have found themselves in the third tier next term.'

Except that Chansiri would/could have appealed the relegation, in a court of law if necessary, and then two EFL divisions would be in doubt regarding their composition and without definite fixture lists.

Any alternative reason for the deferral of the points' deduction to next season?

 

Yep, the independent panel decided it would be.  Chansiri will appeal anyway.

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3 minutes ago, Sham67 said:

 

Yep, the independent panel decided it would be.  Chansiri will appeal anyway.

And rightly so

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51 minutes ago, Sham67 said:

 

Yep, the independent panel decided it would be.  Chansiri will appeal anyway.

Whether it was the panel or the EFL that decided the 12 point deduction should be deferred, the outcome is the same: no relegation for us this season.

Why was the deduction deferred?

If we had been relegated then Chansiri would have appealed. Consequence:  the EFL would not know which team would be in which division. So chaos! No fixed fixture list. Start of season impossible?

Not seen any other possible explanation of WHY the points' deduction was deferred. 

On the other hand an appeal against a 12 point deduction next season gives enough time to resolve the issue during the season.  No complications of who is in which division. 

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1 hour ago, soldierboyblue said:

And rightly so

Chansiri may well appeal the 12 point deduction - with the hope of getting it down to 9 points. But no immediate adverse effect for EFL as it was deferred.

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3 minutes ago, DSandersonOWL said:

Whether it was the panel or the EFL that decided the 12 point deduction should be deferred, the outcome is the same: no relegation for us this season.

Why was the deduction deferred?

If we had been relegated then Chansiri would have appealed. Consequence:  the EFL would not know which team would be in which division. So chaos! No fixed fixture list. Start of season impossible?

Not seen any other possible explanation of WHY the points' deduction was deferred. 

On the other hand an appeal against a 12 point deduction next season gives enough time to resolve the issue during the season.  No complications of who is in which division. 

We haven't seen anything to give reasons about anything yet as the written ruling has yet to be released. 

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1 minute ago, soldierboyblue said:

We haven't seen anything to give reasons about anything yet as the written ruling has yet to be released. 

True.

As it is a forum for discussion, my original post offered a potential reason for the deferral, that it was to avoid the chaos that an appeal against relegation would bring.

Birmingham 9 point penalty was imposed the same season but did not relegate them 

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1 minute ago, DSandersonOWL said:

True.

As it is a forum for discussion, my original post offered a potential reason for the deferral, that it was to avoid the chaos that an appeal against relegation would bring.

Birmingham 9 point penalty was imposed the same season but did not relegate them 

Agreed however I think this whole episode has legs left in it lots of them. Not just from us but from the Charlton's and Barnsley's etc

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18 hours ago, @owlstalk said:

 

 

Please for the love of god.. Please just STOP with this nonsense now

 Other Deities are available..

 

but Owlstalk is right

 

It’s time to move on. 

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4 minutes ago, soldierboyblue said:

Agreed however I think this whole episode has legs left in it lots of them. Not just from us but from the Charlton's and Barnsley's etc

Chansiri's lawyers have done well that we were cleared of "breaching (our) duty of utmost good faith to the EFL by deliberately concealing information", given that inaccurate accounts were submitted relating specifically to "how and when" the sale of Hillsborough took place.

Chansiri might prefer not to appeal, so as not risk the full 21 point deduction which might have hit us.

Brought an ironic smile reading that it was "Garry Monk's Birmingham" that got the 9 point deduction. Much as we can blame him for, certainly neither deduction was his fault. 

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2 minutes ago, DSandersonOWL said:

given that inaccurate accounts were submitted relating specifically to "how and when" the sale of Hillsborough took place.

There was nothing inaccurate about them - they were signed off by an independent auditor so not inaccurate.

 

The EFL rules are what have prevented them being included in the 17/18 seasons accounts NOT inaccurate accounts

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2 minutes ago, soldierboyblue said:

There was nothing inaccurate about them - they were signed off by an independent auditor so not inaccurate.

 

The EFL rules are what have prevented them being included in the 17/18 seasons accounts NOT inaccurate accounts

Perhaps our accountants should have been aware of EFL rules.

Did SWFC not sell Hboro to a company that did not exist on the date of the sale? 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, DSandersonOWL said:

Perhaps our accountants should have been aware of EFL rules.

Did SWFC not sell Hboro to a company that did not exist on the date of the sale? 

I will spell it out - we haven't done anything that is unlawful. 

 

The whole issue of the us contesting the case is that the EFL ratified the sale of the ground. This will possibly form the basis for an appeal along with nothing unlawful having taken place.

 

Edited to add - accounts are bound by a higher regulatory body than the EFL. I'm sure that the FCA and all the other financial bodies consult the EFL rule book before instigating legislation.:duntmatter:

Edited by soldierboyblue

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Just now, soldierboyblue said:

I will spell it out - we haven't done anything that is unlawful. 

 

The whole issue of the us contesting the case is that the EFL ratified the sale of the ground. This will possibly form the basis for an appeal along with nothing unlawful having taken place.

But the problem is the "how and when" of the sale, not the sale itself, in principle ratified. 

Being unlawful and being against EFL rules are two different things.

Okay, have to see if Chansiri appeals, and on what grounds, and whether Charlton pursue EFL in the courts. 

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1 hour ago, soldierboyblue said:

Agreed however I think this whole episode has legs left in it lots of them. Not just from us but from the Charlton's and Barnsley's etc

They have to act in the next 9 days then because isn't the EFL's AGM on the 12th when the clubs for all the leagues are ratified?

 

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Just now, daveyboy66 said:

They have to act in the next 9 days then because isn't the EFL's AGM on the 12th when the clubs for all the leagues are ratified?

 

That's right pal the season is officially over when the AGM convenes. I think the written evidence will be with the club now and our legal team will be going over the details and legality etc. I think an appeal will be lodged 

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2 hours ago, DSandersonOWL said:

Whether it was the panel or the EFL that decided the 12 point deduction should be deferred, the outcome is the same: no relegation for us this season.

Why was the deduction deferred?

If we had been relegated then Chansiri would have appealed. Consequence:  the EFL would not know which team would be in which division. So chaos! No fixed fixture list. Start of season impossible?

Not seen any other possible explanation of WHY the points' deduction was deferred. 

On the other hand an appeal against a 12 point deduction next season gives enough time to resolve the issue during the season.  No complications of who is in which division. 

 

I would imagine the panel thought the offence merited a 12 point deduction but not automatic relegation.   Hence the deferred penalty. 

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48 minutes ago, Sham67 said:

 

I would imagine the panel thought the offence merited a 12 point deduction but not automatic relegation.   Hence the deferred penalty. 

That's possible but Wigan, for going into admin, got automatic relegation through their 12 point deduction. Why not us? 

Garry Monk's Birmingham might have got relegated through their 9 point deduction but avoided it through their own effort, not someone viewing relegation as too severe!

 

I still favour the idea EFL wanted to avoid causing themselves chaos with an Owl appeal leaving them not certain of who was in which division. If and when the written reasons for the sanction are revealed maybe this will help clarify the real reason, or maybe not!

We were so much rubbish in 2020 that we are lucky if the panel were so considerate. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, DSandersonOWL said:

That's possible but Wigan, for going into admin, got automatic relegation through their 12 point deduction. Why not us? 

Garry Monk's Birmingham might have got relegated through their 9 point deduction but avoided it through their own effort, not someone viewing relegation as too severe!

 

I still favour the idea EFL wanted to avoid causing themselves chaos with an Owl appeal leaving them not certain of who was in which division. If and when the written reasons for the sanction are revealed maybe this will help clarify the real reason, or maybe not!

We were so much rubbish in 2020 that we are lucky if the panel were so considerate. 

No Wigan didn't.

 

Wigan received an automatic 12point penalty a month before the season ended when there were point to play for which meant they could have survived.

 

Wigan case in no way shape or form bears any  relevance to ours

Edited by wellbeaten-the-owl
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44 minutes ago, wellbeaten-the-owl said:

No Wigan didn't.

 

Wigan received an automatic 12point penalty a month before the season ended when there were point to play for which meant they could have survived.

 

Wigan case in no way shape or form bears any  relevance to ours

 

You are right that the two cases are different,

 

Wigan :  12 point deduction and consequent relegation. 

 

Owls: 12 point deduction but deferred to avoid relegation. 

 

Very different!  

 

Be interesting to see, if/when we are allowed access, what the written reasons for the sanction reveal !

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, DSandersonOWL said:

 

You are right that the two cases are different,

 

Wigan :  12 point deduction and consequent relegation. 

 

Owls: 12 point deduction but deferred to avoid relegation. 

 

Very different!  

 

Be interesting to see, if/when we are allowed access, what the written reasons for the sanction reveal !

 

 

 

 

Where did any ruling say it was deferred to avoid relegation? 

 

The biggest logical reasoning for applying next season is that it was too late to apply this season because of timeframe for possible appeals which form part of  the disciplinary procedure.

 

Wigan points deduction was given to them in June not end of July. 

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