GARRY MONK vs NEW MANAGER THREAD

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

 

Exactly. They were never in serious danger because of the job Monk did in difficult circumstances.

 

He inherited a team in the relegation zone, kept them up, then steered them well clear of relegation with a points deduction hanging over them the following season. Under his guidance, they picked up 15 points more than the previous season.

 

This season they've dropped back down the table and narrowly avoided the drop by two points, managing eleven points fewer than they did under Monk.

 

They ended up in that situation because the manager that replaced Monk said he was packing in and from then on they didn't win a game. This was a man who didn't want to be a manager and yet his team ended up only 6 points behind our team.

 

After his usual good start Monk has gone downhill and in 2020 we have picked up less points than Birmingham, and indeed everyone in the division apart from Hull. 

Birmingham have taken steps to act upon their poor form by replacing their manager. We are stuck with Monk, a guy who hasn't lasted any time in any of his managerial positions and has fell out with numerous people at every club he has been at, to the point at which he is no longer on speaking terms with the guy he worked best with.

At a time when we need togetherness and instant results you are putting faith in this man after he led us to the abysmal form we have seen this year. 

He came back confident in his new approach after lockdown - it helped us gain 8 points from the last 9 games.

 

Promising stuff. 

 

 

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, shandypants said:

I am no Garry Monk super fan and I will readily accept that he hasn’t shrouded himself in glory in 2020 and I will also accept that there are better managers out there; furthermore, I will accept that Garry Monk appears to be as exciting as a wet Tuesday afternoon in November but Garry Monk is not the reason our club is at its lowest ebb at the moment. We are at our lowest ebb due to mismanagement elsewhere in the club, pet projects, poor recruitment, “journey man” players, “can’t be arsed” players, bad advice, poor (or no) succession planning, and the like. 
 

Our first team/senior squad has been in a terrible state for about two years now and the signs were there long before. At some point, a manager had to grasp the nettle and do something about it. Even the greatest of wizards wouldn’t be able to solve our problems with a waft of his magic wand now. Whichever manager we have has to do some brutal surgery to our squad and has to make and implement some unpopular decisions. 
 

If we get another manager then so be it but they’ll only have to do what Monk has been and will need to do. I’d rather Monk stay in position and put things right then bring in another manager to start at square one again. 

 

I never said he was the main reason we are where we are. Disagree it is our lowest ebb though. I wasn't around in the 70's where we could barely muster a performance in the 3rd division but I did see us begging for life on the high court steps not so long ago and also witnessed us finish in our 2nd lowest league position ever in 2004.

 

I appreciate what you are saying, it is not a job for the faint hearted and not one many 'big names' will want to take on its current state but nothing you suggest supports Monk being the right man. 

You say you'd rather Monk stay in position than have a new man start from square 1. How many steps ahead of square 1 is Monk? We are going to need to recruit the basis of a new squad anyway and the players that we currently have simply weren't working well at all under him. 

[OwlsfaninNorway]

If Monk gets to continue on to next season he really really really really has something to prove rather sharply.

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

1 minute ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

They ended up in that situation because the manager that replaced Monk said he was packing in and from then on they didn't win a game. This was a man who didn't want to be a manager and yet his team ended up only 6 points behind our team.

 

After his usual good start Monk has gone downhill and in 2020 we have picked up less points than Birmingham, and indeed everyone in the division apart from Hull. 

Birmingham have taken steps to act upon their poor form by replacing their manager. We are stuck with Monk, a guy who hasn't lasted any time in any of his managerial positions and has fell out with numerous people at every club he has been at, to the point at which he is no longer on speaking terms with the guy he worked best with.

At a time when we need togetherness and instant results you are putting faith in this man after he led us to the abysmal form we have seen this year. 

He came back confident in his new approach after lockdown - it helped us gain 8 points from the last 9 games.

 

Promising stuff. 

 

I just look at the squad Monk inherited and think where we finished in the league is about par for the course. We overachieved in the first half of the season and underachieved in the second half.

 

Our squad is an absolute mess, with players seemingly unwilling to put the the good of the club before their own interests, no coherent squad planning to talk of, no strength in depth, and very little real quality.

 

The only surprise in Birmingham finishing six points behind us is that they didn't finish ahead of us, looking at the state we're in. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, GLOwl said:

I never said he was the right man, I'm responding to you saying he's not and I'm curious to know why you say that when he's dealing with the poor hand he's been dealt. You keep banging on about we got 17 points from 23 games, with no criticism of the players, just monk. The same players that got to 3rd under monk but no mention of that. The same players that we can see that some of them aren't up to it. Do you really think a different manager and/or formation would have worked better? Not until we get a lot more players in. That is obvious. Give monk the opportunity to get his type of player in and give him his chance. Then we can truly judge him.

 

I never said the players don't have any responsibility and indeed provided an answer to this not so long ago.

Yes he has a poor hand to play with but other managers have proved capable with less. 

I think a different manager would do better than averaging 2 goals per game conceded for half a season - even the worst clubs with the smallest resources manage better than that and if they don't then they generally try someone else in the hot seat. Our players weren't as good as 3rd in the league so he deserved and did get credit for that but they certainly weren't the 23rd best in the league which is what we have become under Monk in 2020.

As for signings, do you really think the choices we make are based on his judgement alone? If that is the case then the jury is out based on Windass, Wickham and Da Cruz's contributions. 

We gave Luhukay a summer to shape his own team - the new season kicked off in awful fashion and he was gone by Christmas - a season wasted with the wrong man. Nothing Monk has done in the past 10 months tells me he will be any better.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

 

I just look at the squad Monk inherited and think where we finished in the league is about par for the course. We overachieved in the first half of the season and underachieved in the second half.

 

Our squad is an absolute mess, with players seemingly unwilling to put the the good of the club before their own interests, no coherent squad planning to talk of, no strength in depth, and very little real quality.

 

The only surprise in Birmingham finishing six points behind us is that they didn't finish ahead of us, looking at the state we're in. 

 

Which players?

[RevOwl]

Starting off the season on minus 12 points will surely now make DC look at the overall managerial structure. Monks recruitment plans will now have to change with the type of players he would have wanted. I wasn't feeling very confident about next season anyway and that wasn't including the minus 12 deficit. We was probably looking at mid table at best so with the EFL outcome now taking affect from the coming season we're going to no doubt be in a real dogfight right to the very end. Is Monk the kind of manager that can put together a squad of players that will run through walls? Is he the kind of manager that can transform a player?  Is he the kind of manager that the right players want to come and play for? If not then this coming season looks bleak. 

[GLOwl]

4 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

I never said the players don't have any responsibility and indeed provided an answer to this not so long ago.

Yes he has a poor hand to play with but other managers have proved capable with less. 

I think a different manager would do better than averaging 2 goals per game conceded for half a season - even the worst clubs with the smallest resources manage better than that and if they don't then they generally try someone else in the hot seat. Our players weren't as good as 3rd in the league so he deserved and did get credit for that but they certainly weren't the 23rd best in the league which is what we have become under Monk in 2020.

As for signings, do you really think the choices we make are based on his judgement alone? If that is the case then the jury is out based on Windass, Wickham and Da Cruz's contributions. 

We gave Luhukay a summer to shape his own team - the new season kicked off in awful fashion and he was gone by Christmas - a season wasted with the wrong man. Nothing Monk has done in the past 10 months tells me he will be any better.

I think you've just countered your own argument.

[FreshOwl]

I’d imagine they’ve probably known for a while mate...hence the contract extension of Pelupessey

[shandypants]

1 minute ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

I never said he was the main reason we are where we are. Disagree it is our lowest ebb though. I wasn't around in the 70's where we could barely muster a performance in the 3rd division but I did see us begging for life on the high court steps not so long ago and also witnessed us finish in our 2nd lowest league position ever in 2004.

 

I appreciate what you are saying, it is not a job for the faint hearted and not one many 'big names' will want to take on its current state but nothing you suggest supports Monk being the right man. 

You say you'd rather Monk stay in position than have a new man start from square 1. How many steps ahead of square 1 is Monk? We are going to need to recruit the basis of a new squad anyway and the players that we currently have simply weren't working well at all under him. 

Regarding  “Square 1”:

How many times do we see a manager in a everyday normal business come in and instantly change things for the better - the answer is very rarely. The new manager either comes in and quickly fvvcks up things or spends a significant amount of time changing things for the better through observation, understanding, design and planning. I know football is different in so many ways to everyday normal business but in so many ways it isn’t. Garry Monk will have things in place now that will remedy our problems over time and will also have a plan to implement other things. Those actions will have taken a lot of time and effort to plan and get in place. Whoever comes in will have to unpick those things before planning and implementing their own things. 
 

In the main, short-termism doesn’t work - of all the organisations in the world, we ought to know that.  I’m fed up of chopping and changing managers every two minutes.  Let’s give Monk the time to do something. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, shandypants said:

Regarding  “Square 1”:

How many times do we see a manager in a everyday normal business come in and instantly change things for the better - the answer is very rarely. The new manager either comes in and quickly fvvcks up things or spends a significant amount of time changing things for the better through observation, understanding, design and planning. I know football is different in so many ways to everyday normal business but in so many ways it isn’t. Garry Monk will have things in place now that will remedy our problems over time and will also have a plan to implement other things. Those actions will have taken a lot of time and effort to plan and get in place. Whoever comes in will have to unpick those things before planning and implementing their own things. 
 

In the main, short-termism doesn’t work - of all the organisations in the world, we ought to know that.  I’m fed up of chopping and changing managers every two minutes.  Let’s give Monk the time to do something. 

 

How many times do you see a manager come in and have an instant impact, Middlesbrough may have been relegated had they not done so.

 

In the main I agree more long-term planning is better than short termism but only if you have the right person to plan with. Would you have given Luhukay longer?

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, GLOwl said:

I think you've just countered your own argument.

 

In what sense?

[Blatter]

3 minutes ago, FreshOwl said:

I’d imagine they’ve probably known for a while mate...hence the contract extension of Pelupessey

I can only guess that was because they expected to be in League 1 next season.

[nbupperthongowl]

5 minutes ago, FreshOwl said:

I’d imagine they’ve probably known for a while mate...hence the contract extension of Pelupessey

Important to keep the game changers in the squad...nurse!!

[prowl]

11 minutes ago, RevOwl said:

Starting off the season on minus 12 points will surely now make DC look at the overall managerial structure. Monks recruitment plans will now have to change with the type of players he would have wanted. I wasn't feeling very confident about next season anyway and that wasn't including the minus 12 deficit. We was probably looking at mid table at best so with the EFL outcome now taking affect from the coming season we're going to no doubt be in a real dogfight right to the very end. Is Monk the kind of manager that can put together a squad of players that will run through walls? Is he the kind of manager that can transform a player?  Is he the kind of manager that the right players want to come and play for? If not then this coming season looks bleak. 

Gary Megson is one manager who would instill that sort of spirit. He knows the type of player needed it a dogfight like that. I think it would be a backward step personally but he would fit the bill.

[akbuk]

15 minutes ago, RevOwl said:

Starting off the season on minus 12 points will surely now make DC look at the overall managerial structure. Monks recruitment plans will now have to change with the type of players he would have wanted. I wasn't feeling very confident about next season anyway and that wasn't including the minus 12 deficit. We was probably looking at mid table at best so with the EFL outcome now taking affect from the coming season we're going to no doubt be in a real dogfight right to the very end. Is Monk the kind of manager that can put together a squad of players that will run through walls? Is he the kind of manager that can transform a player?  Is he the kind of manager that the right players want to come and play for? If not then this coming season looks bleak. 

Another angle on sacking the Manager,forget about it

[vulva]

I think it strengthens Monks position and that’s a real worry. 

[MallorcaOwl]

3 minutes ago, prowl said:

Gary Megson is one manager who would instill that sort of spirit. He knows the type of player needed it a dogfight like that. I think it would be a backward step personally but he would fit the bill.

I would like a change of manager, but I don't think the Megson is the answer he hasn't had a job since west Brom in 2017.

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

12 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

Which players?

 

Those who chose not to play for us during the final stretch of the season, particularly Forestieri, who apparently wasn't even working hard in training according to his own teammate.

 

You can probably include Westwood, who seemingly gets 'injured' within a few games of being asked to sit on the bench.

[Roy Of The Roasters]

20 minutes ago, RevOwl said:

Is Monk the kind of manager that can put together a squad of players that will run through walls? Is he the kind of manager that can transform a player?  Is he the kind of manager that the right players want to come and play for? If not then this coming season looks bleak. 

 

Well, he managed it at Birmingham.