Next Seasons Finances - Are We Actually in a Good Place?

[morley]

42 minutes ago, LondonOwl313 said:

 

 

I can't see how this years loss will be the same as last years when you consider that we lost more than £100k a week off the wage bill in Hooper, Matias, Jones, Abdi, Pudil, Joao etc, and the new lads Harris, Borner etc will be on substantially less. We also lost Bruce and his staff off the wage bill on a reported 40k a week, and Monk will be on nowhere near that.

 

We also got £5m for Joao and £4m for Bruce (apparently), and haven't spent anything on transfers other than £1m or so for Luongo.

 

So if this years accounts show no improvement vs last seasons we really are screwed.

The accounting period to which you refer ends on 31 July 2020.

 

The accounts which are due to be published about now relate to the previous playing season and accounting period ended 31 July 2019 and I don't imagine that they will be much different from the 2018 figures. (leaving ground sales out of the equation)

[dykwim]

Look Seth, I’m on a D-road in France and you’re asking me questions like that. 

[Jonestown83]

7 hours ago, DJMortimer said:

 

Last year's loss (not including the stadium sale) would have been something like £36m. The next financial year's figures are due to be published at the end of this month. I would anticipate that we are going to be close to the circa £21m loss necessary to breach the rolling three year P&S limit. Anyone who was curious about the sale of Lucas Joao; this is probably the main motivation for it.

I think this years accounts will be very interesting due to the stadium sale as much as I disagree with it the point seems to be being missed that the club are no longer financially responsible for the operating costs of the stadium

 

just as an example policing cost average out at around £150,000 a game x23 is just shy of 3.5m a season again the wages of everyone on the stadium side of things will now be being picked up elsewhere I seem to recall from memory our operating costs for the stadium where somewhere between 15-20m a season

 

depending on how the lease is structured this may be a very large bill we are no longer liable for if it’s been set up properly the stadium sale is in effect a license for the club to print money as there’s no cost to any game being held 

[wakefieldinleed1]

450k a season not £3.5m for police

 

£20m a year to run the ground

 

what you been smoking 

 

 

[Jonestown83]

1 hour ago, wakefieldinleed1 said:

450k a season not £3.5m for police

 

£20m a year to run the ground

 

what you been smoking 

 

 

So what would you suggest the operating costs of hillsborough is  including all staff , maintenance and all associates bills is ? 20m might be overestimated but it’s a large bill I the operating cost of West Ham’s stadium is just shy of 5m not including any additional maintenance a quarter and that’s brand new stadium that isn’t falling to bits 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.claretandhugh.info/true-cost-of-running-the-london-stadium-revealed/amp/

[Guest LondonOwl313]

2 hours ago, Jonestown83 said:

So what would you suggest the operating costs of hillsborough is  including all staff , maintenance and all associates bills is ? 20m might be overestimated but it’s a large bill I the operating cost of West Ham’s stadium is just shy of 5m not including any additional maintenance a quarter and that’s brand new stadium that isn’t falling to bits 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.claretandhugh.info/true-cost-of-running-the-london-stadium-revealed/amp/

It can’t be anything like that given turnover is only £25m. It would bankrupt us and be unviable.. £150,000 a game is £6 per person. That’s a quarter of matchday revenue. No chance.

 

In terms of comparing running costs, surely the fact that it’s old and run down makes it cheaper than a new stadium. It would only cost more if we were to do a lot of maintenance but we do the bare minimum. West Ham is in London and given the biggest cost of anything is usually salaries, they will employ more matchday staff and pay them more than us. I’d guess at the cost per game for everything relating to the stadium as being in the tens of thousands. Or £1-2m a year 

[Manwë]

6 hours ago, Jonestown83 said:

So what would you suggest the operating costs of hillsborough is  including all staff , maintenance and all associates bills is ? 20m might be overestimated but it’s a large bill I the operating cost of West Ham’s stadium is just shy of 5m not including any additional maintenance a quarter and that’s brand new stadium that isn’t falling to bits 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.claretandhugh.info/true-cost-of-running-the-london-stadium-revealed/amp/

Are you suggesting match day staff and policing costs could fall under the umbrella of whoever owns Hillsborough these days and not the club?  The police are there for Wednesday matches at Hillsborough in the EFL, not for the owning company.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong for sure as I don't know but I suspect you are. If you were right, it's just another sign of desperation that we have to come up with barmpot schemes to be able to tread water and bend and flex the rules.

 

Why not have Wednesday pay the players just £10 per hour, while the company that owns Hillsborough also giving the players £15k a week?  Or we could sign £20m players for £20, with the Hillsborough owning company paying the rest.  We need Saracens Rugby advisors on board.

 

Get on it Mr Chansiri.  

[Blue and white]

Trying to sell 10 year season tickets tells you all you  need to know.

[Jonestown83]

2 hours ago, Manwë said:

Are you suggesting match day staff and policing costs could fall under the umbrella of whoever owns Hillsborough these days and not the club?  The police are there for Wednesday matches at Hillsborough in the EFL, not for the owning company.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong for sure as I don't know but I suspect you are. If you were right, it's just another sign of desperation that we have to come up with barmpot schemes to be able to tread water and bend and flex the rules.

 

Why not have Wednesday pay the players just £10 per hour, while the company that owns Hillsborough also giving the players £15k a week?  Or we could sign £20m players for £20, with the Hillsborough owning company paying the rest.  We need Saracens Rugby advisors on board.

 

Get on it Mr Chansiri.  

If it’s covered in the lease back then the club would have every cost covered for the match day it becomes classed as an entertainment venue that we “hire” from Chansiri to provide all relevant staff resources maintenance etc

 

in effect the company sheffield Wednesday could lease back hillsborough and all its facilities staff etc for 10p from sheffield 9 or whichever one of if the several companies he set up now owns the ground in effect it’s the reverse of what ken bates used to do by agreeing to pay himself an extortionate amount for Leeds to rent the ground back from him 

 

using sheffield arena as an example the individual band playing that night don’t pick up any of the cost incurred to host the event this now becomes the same thing dodgy as but completely legitimate as the owners of the ground are providing a service That we pay for how much we pay is for Chansiri to agree with Chansiri 

 

 

[striker]

Have EFL closed the loophole on buying your own stadium? 

 

If not, and FFP relaxed next season, might be a good time to buy it back and then sell it to ourselves again the season after when FFP reimposed

 

[Manwë]

15 minutes ago, Jonestown83 said:

If it’s covered in the lease back then the club would have every cost covered for the match day it becomes classed as an entertainment venue that we “hire” from Chansiri to provide all relevant staff resources maintenance etc

 

in effect the company sheffield Wednesday could lease back hillsborough and all its facilities staff etc for 10p from sheffield 9 or whichever one of if the several companies he set up now owns the ground in effect it’s the reverse of what ken bates used to do by agreeing to pay himself an extortionate amount for Leeds to rent the ground back from him 

 

using sheffield arena as an example the individual band playing that night don’t pick up any of the cost incurred to host the event this now becomes the same thing dodgy as but completely legitimate as the owners of the ground are providing a service That we pay for how much we pay is for Chansiri to agree with Chansiri 

 

 

 

You may be entirely correct and that's how things are done, will be done, or could be done, but all of these things are purely to mask that our finances are in a shambolic state and we haven't learnt a single lesson and are in fact trying to find new ways to manipulate the reality of our finances to bend sustainability rules that are applied to every club.  We are basically admitting that we, Sheffield Wednesday FC, can not compete with other clubs within the rules of the game that all are subject to.   Apart from losing Hillsborough, this feeling that we're a grubby little rule-breaking/bending club is what sickens me most about the Chansiri-era Wednesday.

 

I don't agree with the Arena comparison, I don't think a touring band can be compared to a permanent operation.   But of course, now Wednesday no longer own Hillsborough, we are probably leasing the ground, even for a peppercorn.  Wonderful.  It's like one of those adverts for old people who want to "release your equity" for a new car and a weekend in Benidorm, with enough left over for a KFC Family Bucket.  Given away years of hard work to have a second-hand ex-salesman's Merc on the driveway which you no longer own.   

 

And finally which I've said plenty of times and I'm sorry for repeating, for all the rule breaking/bending, for all the fake companies, for all the self-sponsorship, we've ended up a lower/mid table club in the second tier of English football and have lost our home ground of 120 years.

 

Sometimes you need to be hit with a big wet fish around the head to see what a desperate situation you're in.  

[Dutch McLovin]

On 06/07/2020 at 20:50, trev said:

 

Agree with everything except the Monk bit. 

 

But I hope you are right.

Snap its all right but we need rid of Monk

[Jonestown83]

14 minutes ago, Manwë said:

 

You may be entirely correct and that's how things are done, will be done, or could be done, but all of these things are purely to mask that our finances are in a shambolic state and we haven't learnt a single lesson and are in fact trying to find new ways to manipulate the reality of our finances to bend sustainability rules that are applied to every club.  We are basically admitting that we, Sheffield Wednesday FC, can not compete with other clubs within the rules of the game that all are subject to.   Apart from losing Hillsborough, this feeling that we're a grubby little rule-breaking/bending club is what sickens me most about the Chansiri-era Wednesday.

 

I don't agree with the Arena comparison, I don't think a touring band can be compared to a permanent operation.   But of course, now Wednesday no longer own Hillsborough, we are probably leasing the ground, even for a peppercorn.  Wonderful.  It's like one of those adverts for old people who want to "release your equity" for a new car and a weekend in Benidorm, with enough left over for a KFC Family Bucket.  Given away years of hard work to have a second-hand ex-salesman's Merc on the driveway which you no longer own.   

 

And finally which I've said plenty of times and I'm sorry for repeating, for all the rule breaking/bending, for all the fake companies, for all the self-sponsorship, we've ended up a lower/mid table club in the second tier of English football and have lost our home ground of 120 years.

 

Sometimes you need to be hit with a big wet fish around the head to see what a desperate situation you're in.  

couldn’t agree with you more I’m not in favour of any of it I can just see the next few sets of accounts won’t be as bad as expected as large costs will have disappeared due to them being shifted onto the company that owns the stadium 

 

the way our finances have been run is an absolute shower however it seems to be common the way teams are being run 

 

 every club is taking the gamble Leeds announced a loss of over 20 million for last season assuning that increases  this year they’ve broken ffp comfortably unfortunately we gambled and it didn’t pay off I’m expecting 5/6 teams a season in future being brought up on charges looking at some of the past accounts Bristol city forest and Brentford are all going to be well over after this set of accounts Middlesbrough qpr cardiff and Fulham are screwed the year after
 

it seems to be the way the ffp rules have altered the game that you have 3 years of giving it a go get rid of as much of the squad as you can struggle for 3 years then have another go 

[S36 OWL]

3 hours ago, Blue and white said:

Trying to sell 10 year season tickets tells you all you  need to know.

 

Front loading income is a sign of desperation. 

[Guest Mcguigan]

2 hours ago, Jonestown83 said:

couldn’t agree with you more I’m not in favour of any of it I can just see the next few sets of accounts won’t be as bad as expected as large costs will have disappeared due to them being shifted onto the company that owns the stadium 

 

the way our finances have been run is an absolute shower however it seems to be common the way teams are being run 

 

 every club is taking the gamble Leeds announced a loss of over 20 million for last season assuning that increases  this year they’ve broken ffp comfortably unfortunately we gambled and it didn’t pay off I’m expecting 5/6 teams a season in future being brought up on charges looking at some of the past accounts Bristol city forest and Brentford are all going to be well over after this set of accounts Middlesbrough qpr cardiff and Fulham are screwed the year after
 

it seems to be the way the ffp rules have altered the game that you have 3 years of giving it a go get rid of as much of the squad as you can struggle for 3 years then have another go 

Leeds, much like Brentford and Bristol City you mentioned, will have sold £33m of players this season to fund their tilt at promotion and to offset the losses, that's how they manage to stay within FFP rules. Just like if they don't go up this season, they'll off load Phillips for £25m+ and one or two others to balance the books.

 

That's how it rolls in the Championship you sell to buy, you scout well to profit at a later date, you develop youth into salable assets then reinvest well.

 

You don't rely on a dodgy ground sale and then hope to be able offset all the running and operating costs to save money, by the way that would never happen, it's what well run clubs do.

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Mcguigan

[83owl]

19 minutes ago, Mcguigan said:

Leeds, much like Brentford and Bristol City you mentioned, will have sold £33m of players this season to fund their tilt at promotion and to offset the losses, that's how they manage to stay within FFP rules. Just like if they don't go up this season, they'll off load Phillips for £25m+ and one or two others to balance the books.

 

That's how it rolls in the Championship you sell to buy, you scout well to profit at a later date, you develop youth into salable assets then reinvest well.

 

You don't rely on a dodgy ground sale and then hope to be able offset all the running and operating costs to save money, by the way that would never happen, it's what well run clubs do.

 

 

 

Exactly, where as we do the exact opposite. They sold wood to finance the team for years afterwards. Liverpool have sold suarez and coutinho in recent years and in that time we have acted as if the likes of FF, Lees, Bannan etc are irreplaceable.
 

In fact how do we expect to improve any players anyway when we only have two first team coaches?

[Jonestown83]

4 minutes ago, 83owl said:

Exactly, where as we do the exact opposite. They sold wood to finance the team for years afterwards. Liverpool have sold suarez and coutinho in recent years and in that time we have acted as if the likes of FF, Lees, Bannan etc are irreplaceable.
 

In fact how do we expect to improve any players anyway when we only have two first team coaches?

I’m not trying to defend anything we’ve done as it’s been gash my point is there’ll be 4 teams this season charged regarding finance Excluding villa who would’ve been and Wigan as thats just a weird situation  

 

you’ll have the same every season now depending on where teams are on their 3 year cycle is my point for every Leeds or Brentford who shift players for large sums there’s a cardiff  qpr Forest  and ourselves that haven’t 

[RUMBELOWS91]

with the loans gone back and out of contract players gone the threadbare squad we will be left with would be mid table League One standard at best.

 

We will be favourites for relegation if we don't strengthen with proven Championship standard players.

 

There should be the money left in the pot to do this with the big earners gone. If we don't then something is very wrong.

 

[Hookowl]

16 hours ago, Jonestown83 said:

I think this years accounts will be very interesting due to the stadium sale as much as I disagree with it the point seems to be being missed that the club are no longer financially responsible for the operating costs of the stadium

 

just as an example policing cost average out at around £150,000 a game x23 is just shy of 3.5m a season again the wages of everyone on the stadium side of things will now be being picked up elsewhere I seem to recall from memory our operating costs for the stadium where somewhere between 15-20m a season

 

depending on how the lease is structured this may be a very large bill we are no longer liable for if it’s been set up properly the stadium sale is in effect a license for the club to print money as there’s no cost to any game being held 

 

I can't see that being correct at all.

If the club are renting the ground it will just be the same as renting a shop or pub.

You pay rent for the premises and supply and pay for your own goods and staff to run said shop or pub.

[Paddyowl]

On 06/07/2020 at 17:49, TheOwlsofDodworth said:

I'd be happy to stay in the Championship 

 

What's all the fuss with the PL

 

Good competitive league is the Championship. If we could build something without the Hollywood spending, and it align more with the community, youngsters and a good honest ethos, I'd be really happy. 

 

However that's not why people buy football clubs, is it? 

 

I believe we can still be ambitious, but have it be done in a way that represents good morals. 

 

Don't want to really believe its all about money, there's good in everything, just often difficult to feel it with football. 

 

 

IMO the Championship is by far the most competitive and equally matched league in Europe but that is mainly because of the pull of the PL, if finishing 3rd and losing the play-offs or finishing 7th and missing out of the play-offs by goal difference/1pt floats your boat then i'm jumping ship.

 

The PL is the place to be and its been 20 years too long, i'm 51 next month and have been fortunate to see us being more than competetive in the top division , I've since had one 1 heart attack (2 stents fitted) and have diabetes and Bi-polar and i'm wondering if we'll get there before my final whistle blows.

 

I hope we do so our younger fans can experience the ride.