Finance experts "The problem is NOT how money is distributed within the English game"

[room0035]

2 minutes ago, LondonOwl313 said:

I don't think its regional.. I mean we aren't in London and we're charging more than most if not all of the London clubs. As for inflating turnover, you'd have rules around what can and can't be included to get around that.

 

I think clubs should be able to spend what they want, but if a players salary is over and above what the budgeted turnover pays for then the owner has to put the extra money into escrow to make sure there's no financial problems down the line.

I this is why FFP laws don't work, the teams with the biggest turnover break the rules and get away with it.

 

are you not bored watching the same 4 or 5 teams every season the the premier league. Leicester was a blip. The EPL will always be won by Liverpool, Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea because they have the biggest turnovers.

 

Football has become stale and boring something needs to change.

[S36 OWL]

15 minutes ago, room0035 said:

salary caps never work when based on turnover because the London clubs charge more or teams find ways to unfairly inflate their turnover.

 

every team in the league should have a players budget to include, fees, salaries, bonus the best run and organised teams such as the Brentford will rise to the top the worse run such as us, derby, villa, Fulham will have to change or slowly fall down the league.

 

Surely no club would unfairly inflate their turnover? 

 

[mark1948]

If you did that at a stroke it would leave the teams relegated from the Prem with parachute payments with massive wages budgets and the others such as our Owls forever skint. Not allowing owner investment would lead to dissatisfaction and further reduction in the relevance of clubs such as ours.

 

[pazowl55]

17 minutes ago, mark1948 said:

If you did that at a stroke it would leave the teams relegated from the Prem with parachute payments with massive wages budgets and the others such as our Owls forever skint. Not allowing owner investment would lead to dissatisfaction and further reduction in the relevance of clubs such as ours.

 

And it would be even worse if you were a club without any sort of fan base.

[Animis]

1 hour ago, Yellowbelly said:

The threat of a super league has been around for years and they’ve never actually done it. Wonder why?

If your Juve (for example) and you win your domestic league every year, you're the richest and most successful team in that league & you can buy any player you want from your domestic opponents why would you give that up to enter a league with another 10-15 clubs that are as good, if not better than you AND have the same financial clout as you? All of a sudden your not first every year - your 3rd, or 7th or 10th.

Thats why a super league will NEVER happen - in whatever league you play in someone has to finish bottom.

 

1 hour ago, Yellowbelly said:

Yeah, but it’s not about relegation, it’s about glory and the rewards for success. What’s the global fan base going to look like for a club who finishes bottom half of the table every year? They’ve suddenly gone from being serial winners to being the Burnley of the super league. Yes, they’re rich but they were rich before. And every year someone else wins the league they just get smaller. What club would swap bring big fish in little ponds to being also-rans?

 

I get what you're saying and this is a risk for the likes of Juve et al. However, I do think fans, clubs and players would want to be playing the very best of Europe rather than Burnleys and the pigs every other week. 

 

The NFL seem to have an consistent model and teams appear to be content with finishing last and the top 20 teams finances appear to be very similar which presumably spread to opportunities of success. They also have a salary cap, which is shown below - not sure how it is structured though:

 

NFL salary cap for 2019 season set at $188.2M

 

Once again, the NFL salary cap is going up. Officially, the salary cap for 2019 will be $188.2 million, per NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport.

The cap will rise from the 2018 amount of $177.2M.

 

NFL Network's Tom Pelissero added it's the sixth straight year in which the cap has risen at least $10M per franchise, due to continued revenue growth. Free agency officially starts on March 13, the beginning of the NFL calendar year. Two days prior, players can begin negotiating. Each team's effective cap space is listed below, per Over The Cap.

 

Indianapolis Colts: $106,436,235

New York Jets: $96,284,882

Houston Texans: $80,903,667

Buffalo Bills: $79,986,112

Cleveland Browns: $79,199,465

Oakland Raiders: $72,420,680

San Francisco 49ers: $67,493,622

Seattle Seahawks: $48,378,466

Cincinnati Bengals: $49,467,713

Dallas Cowboys: $47,620,275

Tennessee Titans: $43,514,313

Arizona Cardinals: $37,586,094

Denver Broncos: $34,581,784

Green Bay Packers: $34,529,260

Detroit Lions: $33,648,442

New York Giants: $26,507,535

Kansas City Chiefs: $25,155,167

Los Angeles Chargers: $22,548,868

Los Angeles Rams: $21,052,887

Atlanta Falcons: $22,458,182

New England Patriots: $19,425,720

Baltimore Ravens: $18,610,157

Carolina Panthers: $17,459,065

Washington Redskins: $16,969,921

Pittsburgh Steelers: $16,329,956

Tampa Bay Buccaneers: $15,708,489

Chicago Bears: $13,666,141

New Orleans Saints: $10,799,712

Miami Dolphins: $9,616,316

Minnesota Vikings: $5,340,897

Philadelphia Eagles: $4,233,815

Jacksonville Jaguars: - $2,365,428

 

Below are the official franchise and transition tag numbers.

Nonexclusive Rights Franchise Players - Position CPA Tenders

Quarterback $24,865,000

Running back $11,214,000

Wide receiver $16,787,000

Tight end $10,387,000

Offensive linemen $14,067,000

Defensive end $17,128,000

Defensive tackle $15,209,000

Linebacker $15,443,000

Cornerback $16,022,000

Safety $11,150,000

Kicker/Punter $4,971,000

Transition Players

Position CPA Tenders

Quarterback $22,783,000

Running back $9,099,000

Wide receiver $14,794,000

Tight end $8,815,000

Offensive linemen $12,866,000

Defensive end $14,360,000

Defensive tackle $12,378,000

Linebacker $13,222,000

Cornerback $13,703,000

Safety $9,531,000

Kicker/Punter $4,537,000

[Guest LittleG]

4 hours ago, Animis said:

 

Agreed - it's going to happen at some point. There's a 18-club supper-league just waiting to split off and play when they want. I even think the players playing in this league for £200/week won't even play for their country, because the risks and clashes with the super-league fixtures will be too great. We already have players 'retiring' from international football to prolong their club career - this never used to happen.

 

Media is controlling all sport - look at the Fury / Joshua fight. Openly brokered by a widely recognized international criminal with Sky support. There is no way that any limp-wristed authorities like FIFA/Uefa/FA will ever stop this kind of power. 

 

 

There's been talk of a European Super League for 20 years now; if it was going to happen it would have done so before now.

[Yellowbelly]

1 hour ago, Animis said:

 

 

I get what you're saying and this is a risk for the likes of Juve et al. However, I do think fans, clubs and players would want to be playing the very best of Europe rather than Burnleys and the pigs every other week. 

 

The NFL seem to have an consistent model and teams appear to be content with finishing last and the top 20 teams finances appear to be very similar which presumably spread to opportunities of success. They also have a salary cap, which is shown below - not sure how it is structured though:

 

NFL salary cap for 2019 season set at $188.2M

 

 

Once again, the NFL salary cap is going up. Officially, the salary cap for 2019 will be $188.2 million, per NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport.

The cap will rise from the 2018 amount of $177.2M.

 

NFL Network's Tom Pelissero added it's the sixth straight year in which the cap has risen at least $10M per franchise, due to continued revenue growth. Free agency officially starts on March 13, the beginning of the NFL calendar year. Two days prior, players can begin negotiating. Each team's effective cap space is listed below, per Over The Cap.

 

Indianapolis Colts: $106,436,235

New York Jets: $96,284,882

Houston Texans: $80,903,667

Buffalo Bills: $79,986,112

Cleveland Browns: $79,199,465

Oakland Raiders: $72,420,680

San Francisco 49ers: $67,493,622

Seattle Seahawks: $48,378,466

Cincinnati Bengals: $49,467,713

Dallas Cowboys: $47,620,275

Tennessee Titans: $43,514,313

Arizona Cardinals: $37,586,094

Denver Broncos: $34,581,784

Green Bay Packers: $34,529,260

Detroit Lions: $33,648,442

New York Giants: $26,507,535

Kansas City Chiefs: $25,155,167

Los Angeles Chargers: $22,548,868

Los Angeles Rams: $21,052,887

Atlanta Falcons: $22,458,182

New England Patriots: $19,425,720

Baltimore Ravens: $18,610,157

Carolina Panthers: $17,459,065

Washington Redskins: $16,969,921

Pittsburgh Steelers: $16,329,956

Tampa Bay Buccaneers: $15,708,489

Chicago Bears: $13,666,141

New Orleans Saints: $10,799,712

Miami Dolphins: $9,616,316

Minnesota Vikings: $5,340,897

Philadelphia Eagles: $4,233,815

Jacksonville Jaguars: - $2,365,428

 

Below are the official franchise and transition tag numbers.

Nonexclusive Rights Franchise Players - Position CPA Tenders

Quarterback $24,865,000

Running back $11,214,000

Wide receiver $16,787,000

Tight end $10,387,000

Offensive linemen $14,067,000

Defensive end $17,128,000

Defensive tackle $15,209,000

Linebacker $15,443,000

Cornerback $16,022,000

Safety $11,150,000

Kicker/Punter $4,971,000

Transition Players

Position CPA Tenders

Quarterback $22,783,000

Running back $9,099,000

Wide receiver $14,794,000

Tight end $8,815,000

Offensive linemen $12,866,000

Defensive end $14,360,000

Defensive tackle $12,378,000

Linebacker $13,222,000

Cornerback $13,703,000

Safety $9,531,000

Kicker/Punter $4,537,000

Very well researched but the thing with NFL is that it’s no where near as popular as football on a global scale. There are more people in China with Liverpool tops on than the entire NFL roster of teams shirts put together. That puts the balance of power firmly with the clubs - more specifically a cabal of “elite” clubs who have traditionally dominated European leagues. Whereas NFL clubs are controlled by one body who can implement the rules and punish clubs if they step out of line, we have the PL, EFL, FA and UEFA - not to mention FIFA - all working to different agendas, all able to be manipulated by powerhouse clubs. Wage caps at top club level would never be implemented if they could negatively affect one of the “elite”. If the PL tried it - threat of a breakaway. If UEFA tried it - threat of a breakaway. The fact that it would ultimately hurt their “brand” doesn’t come into it, it’s the fear of not having access to those clubs profile that forces the governing bodies to push through rules that protect the big boys but harm the game overall. 

[Utah Owl]

6 hours ago, Inspector Lestrade said:

 

Wouldn't half of that be against the law? And whose going to buy all these clubs from the foreign owners?

 

 

Come on Inspector, what does the very first line say?

[mark1948]

6 hours ago, pazowl55 said:

And it would be even worse if you were a club without any sort of fan base.

Absolutely. And there lies the real answer. Before TV money it was the club's with big support who predominated. The Television money should follow the supporter after all it's the supporters that pay SKY, BT Sport's et Al.

[pazowl55]

53 minutes ago, mark1948 said:

Absolutely. And there lies the real answer. Before TV money it was the club's with big support who predominated. The Television money should follow the supporter after all it's the supporters that pay SKY, BT Sport's et Al.

That's what all the big clubs moan about isnt it in the premier league. And I suppose they have a point.

[2soon]

18 hours ago, @owlstalk said:

 

 

Rugby fans said the exact same thing

 

Look what happened there 

The Rugby salary cap is counterproductive to bringing through players.

[Guest Bulgaria]

13 hours ago, LittleG said:

There's been talk of a European Super League for 20 years now; if it was going to happen it would have done so before now.

 

There is a European super league.

 

 

It's called the champions league

[@owlstalk]

1 hour ago, 2soon said:

The Rugby salary cap is counterproductive to bringing through players.

 

How so

[Guest LittleG]

1 hour ago, Bulgaria said:

 

There is a European super league.

 

 

It's called the champions league

Not really as its a cup competition which is potentially open to all clubs; but its as close to one as you are going to get

[Nero]

Rugby is really interesting model but it would take joint action from FA PL EFL and Sky to implement same thing. But does it work?

 

Every team has a 7m salary cap.

 

They are reducing this to 5m post covid 19. Players are threatening to strike.

 

You can have 2 marquee players who don't count towards it. 1 after covid.

 

Wages are higher in France but England players who go there or anywhere else such as Japan aren't eligible to play for England if they do.

 

Clubs on the whole are still reliant on owners to fund losses.

 

Owners therefore have a big shout in what happens.

 

PremRugby sold a 30% stake in its business to CVC a venture capital company.

 

2nd division has no salary cap but the Prem club relegated gets promoted every year.

 

There is talk of no relegation and promotion because Prem clubs can't deal with the fall in income.

 

Of course Saracens have been relegated after breaching cap through owner creatively paying players by buying them houses and investing in businesses himself etc.

 

Only though after winning the European Cup three times and the Premiership four times.

[pazowl55]

19 minutes ago, Nero said:

Rugby is really interesting model but it would take joint action from FA PL EFL and Sky to implement same thing. But does it work?

 

Every team has a 7m salary cap.

 

They are reducing this to 5m post covid 19. Players are threatening to strike.

 

You can have 2 marquee players who don't count towards it. 1 after covid.

 

Wages are higher in France but England players who go there or anywhere else such as Japan aren't eligible to play for England if they do.

 

Clubs on the whole are still reliant on owners to fund losses.

 

Owners therefore have a big shout in what happens.

 

PremRugby sold a 30% stake in its business to CVC a venture capital company.

 

2nd division has no salary cap but the Prem club relegated gets promoted every year.

 

There is talk of no relegation and promotion because Prem clubs can't deal with the fall in income.

 

Of course Saracens have been relegated after breaching cap through owner creatively paying players by buying them houses and investing in businesses himself etc.

 

Only though after winning the European Cup three times and the Premiership four times.

5m team salary cap now. most players in the premier league earn that on there own. I think the smaller the numbers the more realistic a possibility it is to achieve.  The problem the premier league has is that if it agrees to do it and the rest of Europe dont then all our best players will go and the product will diminish. Within 5 years we will go from the best to about the 5th best league in the world.

Personally I think it will happen in leagues one and two from next season. But I dont see any of the others doing this unless it is agreed by FIFA or UEFA that everyone does it.

[Mickjj]

Salary caps work in North American sports where they are all franchised and more importantly no promotion or relegation.  Also there is no transfer system as we know it the clubs trade players for players (or draft picks) not for a transfer fee. 

[@owlstalk]

 

Surprise Surprise the players association are absolutely BRICKING it that the players might get their salaries capped...

 

Gordon Taylor, chairman of the PFA is in the Telegraph talking about a potential cap and his reaction to it

 

"When you see what’s happened with Saracens in rugby union and in rugby league over salary caps, we’re not comfortable with the idea at all.

 

"Wherever there have been salary caps, there has been trouble and football won’t be any different from that. Akin to when there was a maximum wage in football, the first thing some do is look for ways round it."

 

“What we are not opposed to is financial fair play, clubs revealing balance sheets, showing what they have to work with and working within clear parameters.

 

“But what that does require is good monitoring from the centre or from an independent body.

“Clearly, we don’t want to see clubs go bust and we don’t want to see another Bury happen.

 

“Everybody knows wages need to be at a level that can be sustained.

 

“We’re not stupid, we know what can be sustained and what can’t be and there are lessons to be learned from Bury and other cases.”

 

"But when we’re talking about caps for each division it moves matters to the lowest common denominator and that’s not fair on those innovative, well-managed clubs who are prepared to have a go within their means.

 

"There are potential owners out there who want to invest in clubs because football still has that attraction. That needs to remain an option.

 

“We’ve seen fairy tales come true when you look at benefactors like Jack Walker at Blackburn and Elton John at Watford. You don’t want to find people who have been successful in business feeling shackled by such restrictions."

 

Turns out the PFA aren't being included in the talks about a potential salary cap at this stage

 

"We have never been told officially, this has all been going on without us," he revealed

 

"Rick Parry knows our feelings on it and we’re waiting to hear back to see where we stand on it."

 

"It’s just not the way of doing things. We’re not looking to be confrontational.

 

"But if one side tries to be clever or too intimidatory without the other, it won’t work.

 

"Anything that impacts on players has to go through the PFNCC (Professional Football Negotiating and Consultative Committee).

 

"That collective bargaining agreement is quite sacrosanct."

"We’re not blind to the economics of the game - to think we are gives us no credit for the role we’ve played in helping so many clubs - but if you ignore the players you’re asking for trouble.

[oldishowl]

Says the man currently taking £2million pa out of the game.

Perhaps capping his salary would be a start.

[ken52]

It's all well and good saying 70% salary cap on income but what if you're a club that averages gates of around 10,000, how can they be expected to compete with the Leeds , Derbys and Wednesdays. They've no chance of attracting good players because they simply can't offer the wages. A salary cap is all well and good but it's not the be all and end all. Other factors have to come into play, for instance if a small club sold their best player for multi millions would that give them an extra advantage in a salary cap, probably would, but what happens the season after. If that club were to buy a player with the money they received and pay him more than their average wage would that take them over the salary cap the following year when they haven't got a player to sell for millions.

It's a complex question and needs looking at forensically rather than just saying a salary cap would solve it, it wouldn't. How would we as Wednesday fans feel knowing that other clubs could offer more than us to better players, we'd be gutted and crying out how unfair the system is.