Garry Monks Contract

[adelphi1867]

11 hours ago, Blue and white said:

Usually I agree with you, butbsadly not this time.

With or without his own backroom staff in place he has failed wherever he has gone.

Let's cut our loses and get someone in with a track record of success.

He got Swansea into Europe.

Took Leeds to within promotion.

Kept Birmingham in the Championship against the odds when they were deducted points.

Surely that is on a par with failing in two play offs?.

[adelphi1867]

6 hours ago, oldishowl said:

Football managers don’t resign.

There is always a pay off to be had and not that many jobs available.

 

Unless we sort the structure and organisation of the club out any manager here is doomed to failure.

I agree 100% with this.

 

[beswetherick]

6 minutes ago, soldierboyblue said:

Really that game against Burton must never have happened.

 

The players are the issue and the sooner we have a clear out the better 

 

That was 2 and a half years ago, most of the players that started that game for us have moved on. 

 

I don't remember any of the performances under Bullen this season being as bad as what we’ve seen since Xmas under Monk — more or less the same group of players were able to beat Barnsley, Reading and Luton at the start of the season with Bullen in charge but managed 1 point in total from the reverse fixtures after Monk had taken over

 

[adelphi1867]

2 hours ago, beswetherick said:

 

Weird how that same group of players gave a tóss when Bruce (and even Bullen) was in charge. If Monk can’t manage footballers then he should have a serious think about whether football management is for him

Bruce had to read the riot act to the same players after the game at Rotherham.

He realised what every one knew that the players were not good enough, hence his statement that it would take 4-5 windows to sort it out.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, pazowl55 said:

 

I am not making a comparison about anything to do with Monk or his players all I was doing what commenting on what you said below that managers who are negative can have success because you said it cant be done.

 

 

 

I could list troubled dressing rooms that have had success but that is not the point of the debate. Fair enough, negative managers can have success though I wouldn't say Rafa was negative in this league - how many did Newcastle score that season, how many did Liverpool score when he won things with them. 

 

Mourinho shut games down when winning and was certainly not expansive but his sides still play to win most of the time - I bet he never had a spell of 2 first half goal in 16 home games!

Same goes for Conte and Simeone when successful - negative in comparison when playing the top sides but ruthlessly effective against others - Chelsea scored 85 goals in their title winning season under Conte, hardly negative.

 

Unlike the managers you have listed, Monk sets us out not to lose in most if not all games - completely different to the styles of managers you referenced. We play negative regardless of the opposition and out stats, especially at home reflect this.  

[Guest wilyfox]

33 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

Indeed I am, a manager capable of managing a club like ours. Perhaps we shouldn't have followed his tenure with a relatively inexperienced manager who has no success on his CV.

 

 

Not with this group of players, no. Said that at the time of Monk's appointment. Rowett would have had similar issues, like at Stoke. If a dressing room has difficult characters in it, sometimes it takes a Bruce or Warnock to keep them in check. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, adelphi1867 said:

Bruce had to read the riot act to the same players after the game at Rotherham.

He realised what every one knew that the players were not good enough, hence his statement that it would take 4-5 windows to sort it out.

 

Did he get a reaction?

[Guest LondonOwl313]

11 minutes ago, adelphi1867 said:

He got Swansea into Europe.

Took Leeds to within promotion.

Kept Birmingham in the Championship against the odds when they were deducted points.

Surely that is on a par with failing in two play offs?.

He didn’t though.. Swansea were in Europe because they won the league cup which I think was under Laudrup

 

Leeds he bottled it and he collapsed finishing 7th. Imagine if he’d done that here, people would have been fuming 

 

Birmingham they were outside the play offs and the fell apart towards the end of the season

 

Its no different to what he’s done here really.. decent results at the start and then fall apart

[Belfast Owl 2]

24 minutes ago, adelphi1867 said:

That's better.

 I can only think of 3 managers in the last 50 years that ALL the fans got behind:

1)' Sir' Jack Charlton

2) Howard Wilkinson

3) Ron Atkinson.

 

Carlos in his first season as well?

 

There was a lot of love there

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, adelphi1867 said:

He got Swansea into Europe.

Took Leeds to within promotion.

Kept Birmingham in the Championship against the odds when they were deducted points.

Surely that is on a par with failing in two play offs?.

 

Swansea were in Europe when Monk took over, he didn't get them into Europe.

Leeds are closer to promotion now than they were under him, guess what he fell out with people and left.

Birmingham never looked like getting relegated, they remain in financial trouble and his former assistant - who he fell out with - is doing just as good of a job.

Failed miserably at  Boro having blown the summer transfer budget.

 

You have to reach the play-offs to fail in them. Were you backing us to reach the play-offs when an unknown manager took over in 2015?

[beswetherick]

10 minutes ago, pazowl55 said:

Did ok at Swansea.  I ain't no massive fan of Monks I just think he needs to be judged when he has his own players in and the ones he doesn't want out.

 

Did ok at Swansea 5/6 years ago when he inherited a squad that had been put together by three very good managers... then got sacked after going on a bad run and not being able to turn it around. 

 

I get what you’re saying in that he can only be properly judged when he’s got his own players in — but IMO he hasn’t shown anything in his time here (or in his career in general) that suggests he’s capable of building a squad, or that he deserves the opportunity to oversee the rebuild here that we’ve needed for a few years

[adelphi1867]

2 hours ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

As below, the aim for Carlos was promotion but we weren't as well budgeted for promotion as others in the division. The aim for Monk is still to get results when reducing the wage bill and use the squad that he has available to him. Performances have been abysmal for some time and results have been even worse. 

 

 

 

 

 

Bruce may have only improved the league position by two places but if you saw the performances there were clear signs of what he was doing and positive improvement - we were very good at Norwich against the Champions late on in the season.

He also appeared to have a unified squad all pulling in the same direction.

 

None of the above is apparent under Monk, yes he made a good start - he made a good start in most of his previous management jobs but didn't last very long in any of them. Only Hull are in worse form than us in the second half of the season and we are behind the 3rd worst by some distance.  

 

 

 

He wasn't that impressed after the game at Rotherham, where for the 1st time Bruce witnessed the real Wednesday squad.

+ The team performances were going back to normal.

[pazowl55]

2 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

I could list troubled dressing rooms that have had success but that is not the point of the debate. Fair enough, negative managers can have success though I wouldn't say Rafa was negative in this league - how many did Newcastle score that season, how many did Liverpool score when he won things with them. 

 

Mourinho shut games down when winning and was certainly not expansive but his sides still play to win most of the time - I bet he never had a spell of 2 first half goal in 16 home games!

Same goes for Conte and Simeone when successful - negative in comparison when playing the top sides but ruthlessly effective against others - Chelsea scored 85 goals in their title winning season under Conte, hardly negative.

 

Unlike the managers you have listed, Monk sets us out not to lose in most if not all games - completely different to the styles of managers you referenced. We play negative regardless of the opposition and out stats, especially at home reflect this.  

My point was more you can be a negative manger and have success.  Of course there are variables to all of it. 

 

How has Monks tactics changed from when we were winning are we more negative now then back then or are we just rubbish. 

 

All I was saying was you can base your tatcics negatively and still have success. Burnley do that well.

[Sergeant Tibbs]

34 minutes ago, pazowl55 said:

Any first team players that Monk has discarded from the team he must regard as some sort of bad influence. Especially if they are not even training with the first team.  

I am not saying they are trouble makers as I dont know what went on but clearly Monk doesn't want them around the first team for whatever reason and that must be because of the negative influence they could have on the rest of the team.

For too long the tail has wagged the dog, it is never easy to change an established team dynamic, whatever the line of business. 
But Monk could end up falling on his own sword.

[pazowl55]

2 minutes ago, beswetherick said:

 

Did ok at Swansea 5/6 years ago when he inherited a squad that had been put together by three very good managers... then got sacked after going on a bad run and not being able to turn it around. 

 

I get what you’re saying in that he can only be properly judged when he’s got his own players in — but IMO he hasn’t shown anything in his time here (or in his career in general) that suggests he’s capable of building a squad, or that he deserves the opportunity to oversee the rebuild here that we’ve needed for a few years

Maybe not. but we dont have much option but to give him the support he needs in trying do we. 

[pazowl55]

1 minute ago, Sergeant Tibbs said:

For too long the tail has wagged the dog, it is never easy to change an established team dynamic, whatever the line of business. 
But Monk could end up falling on his own sword.

Jos did.

[adelphi1867]

1 minute ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

Swansea were in Europe when Monk took over, he didn't get them into Europe.

Leeds are closer to promotion now than they were under him, guess what he fell out with people and left.

Birmingham never looked like getting relegated, they remain in financial trouble and his former assistant - who he fell out with - is doing just as good of a job.

Failed miserably at  Boro having blown the summer transfer budget.

 

You have to reach the play-offs to fail in them. Were you backing us to reach the play-offs when an unknown manager took over in 2015?

After 5 home games I said that it would all end in tears, and guess what, I was right.

Birmingham would have been relegated with the points deduction they received, if not for the extra points they gained.

Leeds were in mid table going nowhere, They developed into a promotion position, yes they blew up, just like last year.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, adelphi1867 said:

He wasn't that impressed after the game at Rotherham, where for the 1st time Bruce witnessed the real Wednesday squad.

+ The team performances were going back to normal.

 

Bruce got a reaction, 4 wins and no defeats in the next 8. Monk is getting the reverse of a reaction.

 

The last 3 games under Bruce were a really good performance at Norwich, a great comeback at Preston and a nothing performance in a meaningless last game of the season - even the best managers have lost such games with a whimper. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, adelphi1867 said:

After 5 home games I said that it would all end in tears, and guess what, I was right.

Birmingham would have been relegated with the points deduction they received, if not for the extra points they gained.

Leeds were in mid table going nowhere, They developed into a promotion position, yes they blew up, just like last year.

 

What are you on about?

 

Birmingham did OK under Monk, nothing more. He fell out with owners, not for the first time and they are doing OK without him.

Leeds were top 6 most of that season and tailed off in typical Monk style. Their previous manager were complete non entities at this level, no surprise he improved on their record.

Middlesbrough??????

Proven wrong on Swansea?

 

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, pazowl55 said:

My point was more you can be a negative manger and have success.  Of course there are variables to all of it. 

 

How has Monks tactics changed from when we were winning are we more negative now then back then or are we just rubbish. 

 

All I was saying was you can base your tatcics negatively and still have success. Burnley do that well.

 

We weren't great at home even in the first half of the season. We were never that good to watch but were effective, largely due to the great form of Fletcher. Teams then started to tag onto the way we played and combat this, monk has not managed an effective alternative approach since and Fletcher getting injured compounded this.

Results were bound to slide without Fletcher but not to the extent we have seen, getting outplayed by the bottom 6 and hammered by others regularly.