Garry Monks Contract

[Guest LondonOwl313]

24 minutes ago, wilyfox said:

 

...if recruitment is good. Players have over-stayed, and recruitment has been iffy. We have many players in the squad here 4/5yrs+. This group fell a bit short in their prime. Keep this player fit, get that player back to their best, and it'll be 2016 again? If not, blame the manager. Great strategy.

 

Bruce was a good manager, but someone rightly pointed out he said he wanted 3 windows to overhaul this squad and shape into something useful again. You praise him, then say he's wrong..? 

I agree it’s probably time for them to be replaced but unless we address the bulk of the players who are playing and turning in these dire performances then it will make little difference. The squad should have evolved over the last 3-4 years but since summer 2016 and the signing of Fletcher the only good signing we’ve made is Iorfa and a few half decent ones in Borner, Harris and Luongo. 1 good signing in 4 years is the problem

 

as for Bruce’s comment on timescale I’d take it with a pinch of salt. He’s not going to want to say the objective is promotion immediately as there’s no benefit to that. Better to say it’s a two year job and then outperform. The guy has been a championship-premier league yo yo manager for years so he wouldn’t have come here if he hadn’t been quietly confident it was possible to get us promoted relatively quickly. Otherwise he’d have waited for another top end championship job

[Guest wilyfox]

19 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

Bruce showed signs of doing that and progress. Results improved and performances were good, you could see what he wanted to do. He has a track record at this level and I would have had confidence in him improving us in each window.

 

Monk has no track record of managerial success. In January he panned the team for their displays - and brought in 3 loan players in his first transfer window that have not markedly improved the team he panned. I see nothing from his tactics of selections that make me think we will go in the right direction under him.

 

The amount of half-time substitutions and tactical changes he makes must be unrivaled, having got his selections so wrong we are often chasing or out of the game inside 45 minutes. Playing Forestieri at wing-back was a new one on me, as it must have been on him and the whole team, guess what, it didn't work and he changed it at half-time - to no avail.

 

I'm no big Monk fan, but he inherited a team past it's best and needing overhaul.

 

You're also comparing him with a manager near 20yrs his senior with vast more experience at this level and above. 

[83owl]

4 minutes ago, LondonOwl313 said:

I agree completely with the second half of your post and your assessment of each player. My point is those are the players we need to ship out otherwise we’ll continue to struggle but people seem to want to blame the other ones who aren’t involved for the results on the pitch.

 

As for whether players need to be told in advance. Why can’t the club just say we’re making decisions at the end of the season.. id have thought that was the norm tbh. At Xmas you don’t know what league you’re going to be in sometimes nor what the budget or objective is for next season. It only makes sense to tie down contracts early if you know that you want to retain the players regardless of what happens with results. That’s clearly not the case for some of ours so they should have been kept on their toes until it was time for them to go 

Players and agents will want to know. If they aren’t going to be kept on then they will be unofficially talking to other clubs.
 

The last thing both a player or agent want is an injury near the end of a season without a contract in place as then they are stuck without an income for potentially a long period of time.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, 83owl said:

Like I said I think in his first 18 games monk had won 8 drawn 4 and lost 6 and we were competitive in any game. We have no idea how Bruce would have done long term.

 

So who is to blame that he can no longer get anything at all out of the same bunch?

 

I would be very surprised if we would have gone on to lose so many games so easily under Bruce and perform as badly as we have done in the second half of the season.

Maybe Bruce would have selected Forestieri as a wing-back too though, who knows!

[Guest]

1 minute ago, wilyfox said:

 

I'm no big Monk fan, but he inherited a team past it's best and needing overhaul.

 

You're also comparing him with a manager near 20yrs his senior with vast more experience at this level and above. 

 

Indeed I am, a manager capable of managing a club like ours. Perhaps we shouldn't have followed his tenure with a relatively inexperienced manager who has no success on his CV.

 

[Guest LittleG]

14 minutes ago, 83owl said:

 

 

I don’t know why with these players forming a large part of the available squad people think we should be near the top of the league.

I don't think anybody expected us to be near the top of the league by the end of the season; the main issue has been the abysmal performances and results since Xmas. We all know the squad isn't good enough but I've no confidence in Monks ability to build a new, competitive one. 

[83owl]

We won’t know as obviously Bruce left. I think Monk has a hard job on his hands and whilst I don’t think he’s completely blameless I think it’s unfair to paint the picture of him being useless and Bruce as the messiah. I don’t buy the boyhood club rubbish, personally I think he realised the scale of disarray behind the scenes and got out whilst he could.

[Guest LondonOwl313]

1 minute ago, 83owl said:

Players and agents will want to know. If they aren’t going to be kept on then they will be unofficially talking to other clubs.
 

The last thing both a player or agent want is an injury near the end of a season without a contract in place as then they are stuck without an income for potentially a long period of time.

Their preference would obviously be to get it sorted out early.. but that’s football isn’t it. It’s an insecure type of job. I’d imagine they test the market anyway before signing a new deal because they’ll want to make sure they’re getting the best deal possible for their player
 

That doesn’t change that from the clubs perspective it’s better to play cards close to your chest, leave the door open and see what happens over the second half of the season. If that backfires and a player leaves that you might have wanted to keep then that’s just a risk you have to take

[pazowl55]

41 minutes ago, Tommy Crawshaw said:

 

 

Go on then, who are these negative players and troublemakers?

Any first team players that Monk has discarded from the team he must regard as some sort of bad influence. Especially if they are not even training with the first team.  

I am not saying they are trouble makers as I dont know what went on but clearly Monk doesn't want them around the first team for whatever reason and that must be because of the negative influence they could have on the rest of the team.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, 83owl said:

Monk hasn’t ostracised anyone. Again this is a simple concept that has been over many times. You have to tell players if their contract isn’t going to be renewed, their agents are in constant contact with the club, if they aren’t in negotiations with only 6 months left then they obviously aren’t going to be offered a new deal. To tell them that they are in the future plans when the club isn’t offering them a new contract is a blatant lie. If anything the players are even more at fault as if they wanted to prove the manager wrong and earn a new contract the only way to do that is by good performances which they obviously haven’t put in.

 

As for this players mentioned

Dawson- I hoped given the run of games he would make the position his, he hasn’t.

Palmer-Average championship full back

Lees-Needs a senior player to hold his hand

Harris-deemed not good enough by cardiff

Pelupessy-Cheap foreign gamble, tries hard but clearly not at the level required

Nuhiu-Not good enough

Lee-Serious injury

Winnall-Serious injury

Rhodes-Clearly has some mental problem. Despite his record he has always needed a specific strike partner/style of play to be effective

 

I don’t know why with these players forming a large part of the available squad people think we should be near the top of the league.

 

How can they put good performances in and prove the manager wrong if he won't pick them and has told them they have no future?

 

Surely it would be better for morale to tell them they have an opportunity to earn a contract by way of their performances? 

 

Don't think anybody expects us to be near the top of the league with the players you mentioned. just not beaten by half-time on a regular basis with the manager continually making half-time substitutions because what he has spent the week leading up to a game working on has been found to be useless within 45 minutes. 

[pazowl55]

50 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

Bit different when you have the strongest teams in the division and multi millions to spend. All of those managers also had difficult characters to deal with in the dressing room during their success.

 

Are you comparing these managers with Monk? 

Is that what I was saying or was I saying that a negative tactical manager can have success.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, pazowl55 said:

Any first team players that Monk has discarded from the team he must regard as some sort of bad influence. Especially if they are not even training with the first team.  

I am not saying they are trouble makers as I dont know what went on but clearly Monk doesn't want them around the first team for whatever reason and that must be because of the negative influence they could have on the rest of the team.

 

These players haven't been around in 2020 so what is the problem now?  We are referring to what is apparently causing a negative influence in terms of results and performances in the past 3 months of matches.

[Guest]

Just now, pazowl55 said:

Is that what I was saying or was I saying that a negative tactical manager can have success.

 

As I said, the managers you referred to all had top squads and also had negative characters in the dressing room that they were able to deal with. Not a good comparison. 

[Sergeant Tibbs]

34 minutes ago, 83owl said:

Monk hasn’t ostracised anyone. Again this is a simple concept that has been over many times. You have to tell players if their contract isn’t going to be renewed, their agents are in constant contact with the club, if they aren’t in negotiations with only 6 months left then they obviously aren’t going to be offered a new deal. To tell them that they are in the future plans when the club isn’t offering them a new contract is a blatant lie. If anything the players are even more at fault as if they wanted to prove the manager wrong and earn a new contract the only way to do that is by good performances which they obviously haven’t put in.

 

As for this players mentioned

Dawson- I hoped given the run of games he would make the position his, he hasn’t.

Palmer-Average championship full back

Lees-Needs a senior player to hold his hand

Harris-deemed not good enough by cardiff

Pelupessy-Cheap foreign gamble, tries hard but clearly not at the level required

Nuhiu-Not good enough

Lee-Serious injury

Winnall-Serious injury

Rhodes-Clearly has some mental problem. Despite his record he has always needed a specific strike partner/style of play to be effective

 

I don’t know why with these players forming a large part of the available squad people think we should be near the top of the league.

I must admit when we were third I didn’t think it would last, but neither did t think the performances, particularly defensively, could plummet like they have.

We’ve got 4 or 5 players who should be plying their trade at the right end of this league. Unless you have a tight knit unit who stick to a successful plan, and avoid injuries, 4 or 5 good players isn’t enough for promotion.

Clearly something has kicked off in the changing room, so Monk has to take some responsibility for that, but the way the team has crumbled so often this year leaves me to believe some players just don’t care. Yes, Bruce would have got more out of this squad,  but he’s gone and it pains me to say it, managers of his ilk are hard to find in this league, especially for a club in financial difficulties.

Covid has helped keep Monk in a job, although I believe the squad will be more of a coherent unit when Hutchinson, Forestieri and Winnall have gone.
If the performances are still dire with his own squad / backroom staff, he’s got to go.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Sergeant Tibbs

[soldierboyblue]

2 hours ago, beswetherick said:

and even Bullen

Really that game against Burton must never have happened.

 

The players are the issue and the sooner we have a clear out the better 

[adelphi1867]

2 hours ago, Belfast Owl 2 said:

 

Who is undermining him? Is is the fans who are responsible for two 5-0 defeats in 2020?

 

You can't force ALL fans to get behind a manager if they think he is doing an awful job. They don't need to be told what to do.

That's better.

 I can only think of 3 managers in the last 50 years that ALL the fans got behind:

1)' Sir' Jack Charlton

2) Howard Wilkinson

3) Ron Atkinson.

[adelphi1867]

16 hours ago, Blue and white said:

McCarthy 

Megson

Bruce (soon to be free)

Hughton 

Warnock 

PULLIS

As free or soon to be free agents, all have at least 2 promotions from the league, all proven track records and I wouldn't be disappointed with anyone of them.

Personally I would jump at Jokanovic but he is being paid millions in the middle east.

You for got him.

[beswetherick]

34 minutes ago, pazowl55 said:

They do. but it doesn't have to be a positive tactic just a positive atmosphere. Let's see what Monk does when he get his players in and what he thinks are the trouble makers out.

 

He’s not really created a positive atmosphere around the club though has he? Even if you disregard all the EFL bollöcks it’s absolutely crazy that we had/have very real worries about being relegated after being 3rd at Xmas. Monk’s track record shows that when things start to go wrong he can’t fix it — he either jumps or gets pushed.

 

His history in the transfer market worries me as well. He spent a small fortune in a summer transfer window at Boro and was sacked by Xmas.

 

Honestly I think he’s just totally out of his depth at this level — I’d love him to prove me wrong and for him to be a success here, but I’m seeing no evidence either here or at any other club he’s managed that he’s capable of actually doing it

[pazowl55]

4 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

As I said, the managers you referred to all had top squads and also had negative characters in the dressing room that they were able to deal with. Not a good comparison. 

 

I am not making a comparison about anything to do with Monk or his players all I was doing what commenting on what you said below that managers who are negative can have success because you said it cant be done.

 

1 hour ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

You cannot succeed with a negative manager leading the team.

 

[pazowl55]

4 minutes ago, beswetherick said:

 

He’s not really created a positive atmosphere around the club though has he? Even if you disregard all the EFL bollöcks it’s absolutely crazy that we had/have very real worries about being relegated after being 3rd at Xmas. Monk’s track record shows that when things start to go wrong he can’t fix it — he either jumps or gets pushed.

 

His history in the transfer market worries me as well. He spent a small fortune in a summer transfer window at Boro and was sacked by Xmas.

 

Honestly I think he’s just totally out of his depth at this level — I’d love him to prove me wrong and for him to be a success here, but I’m seeing no evidence either here or at any other club he’s managed that he’s capable of actually doing it

Did ok at Swansea.  I ain't no massive fan of Monks I just think he needs to be judged when he has his own players in and the ones he doesn't want out.

Edited June 7, 2020 by pazowl55