Sam Hutchinson on 5 Live

[@owlstalk]

 

If you'd been a manager before you would understand that making changes to a workforce can take time, can have repercussions that last time, and that changes take time to turn round a workforce's work ethic, productivity levels etc

 

[Dick_Turpin]

15 minutes ago, @owlstalk said:

Yet the second he starts to manage the situation and the fans start crying like babies for their favourite players back

 

When "starting to manage the situation" involves getting a series of tonkings while standing on the sidelines with a face like a slappedarse fans will start to look at whether things are on track or whether we're heading for disaster.  If that involves wanting players involved who are better than the ones on the pitch then so be it. Or maybe we should all spend our money and shut up. At least he's much better man manager than Trevor Francis as results clearly show.

 

 

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, @owlstalk said:

 

If you'd been a manager before you would understand that making changes to a workforce can take time, can have repercussions that last time, and that changes take time to turn round a workforce's work ethic, productivity levels etc

 

 

Did you miss the part where I said I had.

 

The workforce and productivity levels for fine for 3 months when he started - as appears to be a pattern in his managerial career this has dropped off.

 

Football management is different to managing in other walks of life, these days managers don't get a year or 18 months to turn things around. 

 

What are the signs that make any impression that he is worth giving longer in the job?

 

Results improving- No

Performances improving - No

Any signs of effective ways to improve the drop in results and performances - No

Loan signings made in January having a positive impact on the results and performances - No

 

Least goals at home in the division

2 goals at home in 16 first halves

2nd worst record in the division since Christmas - only bettered by Hull who sold their 2 best players in January and beat us at Hillsborough in January. 

Conceding goals for fun including losing the last 2 league games before half-time

Tactical nous that all too often results in half time substitutions

Playing the most creative attacking player in the team as a wing-back when nobody has ever considered playing him in any sort of role with defensive responsibility.

 

But yeah, it all boils down to the fact people don't like him because he dropped Hutchinson and Westwood........ 

[Beholder]

57 minutes ago, @owlstalk said:

 

 

All those people in this thread saying you should let your best players do as they please, and train once a week if they want because they're our best players...

Yet I bet if the same rule applied to someone at THEIR work they'd be the first to kick off about it

So you don't believe in individual needs?

 

It's always been like this with Hutch because he was brought back from retirement. 

 

Draconian inflexible rules are really idiotic and in this case it destroyed our season. 

[Miffed]

23 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

I've managed people/teams mate, not always as black and white as you infer.

 

The fans aren't specifically on Monk's back because he cast aside Westwood and Hutchinson. Monk is rightly being questioned because we have barely got a result in 3 months of football and not only that, we don't look like getting a result, play dour football and keep getting hammered inside 45 minutes.

We are a shadow of a team and can't even set up to be difficult to beat which many managers are at least able to instill when the team are struggling to perform well. Every team in this division has been better than us since Christmas.

Yeah but you’re missing the other important point that Owlstalk made.... What if those two players were the two most popular players in the dressing room? What if some of the players have got the face on about it? 
 

 

You’re not telling me that those players have given 100% since Christmas. No chance. 
 

And it was reported that a senior pro at the club also asked for Christmas off. 
 

Yet fans blame the manager... manager leaves... next manager comes in.... same players, same problems.... call for manager 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Miffed said:

Yeah but you’re missing the other important point that Owlstalk made.... What if those two players were the two most popular players in the dressing room? What if some of the players have got the face on about it? 
 

 

You’re not telling me that those players have given 100% since Christmas. No chance. 
 

And it was reported that a senior pro at the club also asked for Christmas off. 
 

Yet fans blame the manager... manager leaves... next manager comes in.... same players, same problems.... call for manager 

 

If they were the 2 most popular players in the dressing room why choose to rock the boat to the extent that everything blows up? Not a good management decision.

 

The facts I have just posted speak for themselves.

 

[Bouncing Owl]

2 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

Did you miss the part where I said I had.

 

The workforce and productivity levels for fine for 3 months when he started - as appears to be a pattern in his managerial career this has dropped off.

 

Football management is different to managing in other walks of life, these days managers don't get a year or 18 months to turn things around. 

 

What are the signs that make any impression that he is worth giving longer in the job?

 

Results improving- No

Performances improving - No

Any signs of effective ways to improve the drop in results and performances - No

Loan signings made in January having a positive impact on the results and performances - No

 

Least goals at home in the division

2 goals at home in 16 first halves

2nd worst record in the division since Christmas - only bettered by Hull who sold their 2 best players in January and beat us at Hillsborough in January. 

Conceding goals for fun including losing the last 2 league games before half-time

Tactical nous that all too often results in half time substitutions

Playing the most creative attacking player in the team as a wing-back when nobody has ever considered playing him in any sort of role with defensive responsibility.

 

But yeah, it all boils down to the fact people don't like him because he dropped Hutchinson and Westwood........ 

 

When he played Forestieri wing back against Luton away, I thought at the time that this is a manager who is not thinking clearly or rationally. It was one of the most bizarre decisions I’ve seen from a manager down at Wednesday. 
 

 

[Dick_Turpin]

2 minutes ago, Miffed said:

Yet fans blame the manager... manager leaves... next manager comes in.... same players, same problems.... call for manager 

A manager has to manage with what he has or change the team.

 

Let's say the players he inherited were a busted flush and we need to restart? Has Monk ever built a team form scratch that's won anything? We know the answer so he's more of a punt than the Cowleys or someone like that even. I think it's it's probably too soon to sack him but I have no confidence he's the man for the job. 

 

We've had a series of sets of players over the last 20 years and none of them have got us back into Premier League. It's not just the current mob.  It's been a succession of players, managers and chairmen who have all failed - and I reckon all three are doing the very same right now. We could do with a total clear out from the boardroom to the subs bench.  But the reality is it's easier to fire the manager and try and find someone who can have more success with the core of players we have - like Wilko did with Charlton's team, Jones/Megson, Sturrock/Turner etc.  

 

But if you think Monk's the Man - I hope you're right. 

[Tommy Crawshaw]

2 minutes ago, Bouncing Owl said:

 

When he played Forestieri wing back against Luton away, I thought at the time that this is a manager who is not thinking clearly or rationally. It was one of the most bizarre decisions I’ve seen from a manager down at Wednesday. 
 

 

 

It was in Jos's no strikers at Millwall territory 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Bouncing Owl said:

 

When he played Forestieri wing back against Luton away, I thought at the time that this is a manager who is not thinking clearly or rationally. It was one of the most bizarre decisions I’ve seen from a manager down at Wednesday. 
 

 

 

And what happened - he was forced to abandon it at half time and make tactical changes as he has had to do all too often due to getting the approach wrong from the start. Still didn't make a difference as we became one of the few teams to manage not to score against Luton at that time.

[Bouncing Owl]

Just now, hirstyboywonder said:

 

And what happened - he was forced to abandon it at half time and make tactical changes as he has had to do all too often due to getting the approach wrong from the start. Still didn't make a difference as we became one of the few teams to manage not to score against Luton at that time.

Ye - his substitutions have been bizarre all season as well. The Derby County away game was a classic example. Completely in control in the first half and he takes off Fletcher and Harris early in the second who were easily our best 2 players on the night. We were lucky to get a point at the end. 
 

Ive been behind him for most of the season and wanted him to do well but team selections, tactics and subs have been bizarre to say the least. It’s got worse as the season has gone on. 

[Bouncing Owl]

6 minutes ago, Tommy Crawshaw said:

 

It was in Jos's no strikers at Millwall territory 

Ye, remember that one. Was Ross Wallace our false number 9? 

[Miffed]

8 minutes ago, rickygoo said:

A manager has to manage with what he has or change the team.

 

Let's say the players he inherited were a busted flush and we need to restart? Has Monk ever built a team form scratch that's won anything? We know the answer so he's more of a punt than the Cowleys or someone like that even. I think it's it's probably too soon to sack him but I have no confidence he's the man for the job. 

 

We've had a series of sets of players over the last 20 years and none of them have got us back into Premier League. It's not just the current mob.  It's been a succession of players, managers and chairmen who have all failed - and I reckon all three are doing the very same right now. We could do with a total clear out from the boardroom to the subs bench.  But the reality is it's easier to fire the manager and try and find someone who can have more success with the core of players we have - like Wilko did with Charlton's team, Jones/Megson, Sturrock/Turner etc.  

 

But if you think Monk's the Man - I hope you're right. 

Its not whether Monk is the man, I’m still on the fence, but a big big clear out is definitely needed.
 

Even Bruce said so

[@owlstalk]

16 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

If they were the 2 most popular players in the dressing room why choose to rock the boat to the extent that everything blows up?

 

 

So you'd give in to the 2 most popular members of staff every time they kick off about something?

And how do you think would that affect the rest of the workforce?

[Dick_Turpin]

3 minutes ago, @owlstalk said:

 

So you'd give in to the 2 most popular members of staff every time they kick off about something?

And how do you think would that affect the rest of the workforce?

Depends how justified they were at kicking off - and it would depend on what rest of workforce thought about it wouldn't it? Unless you're Ron Saunders. 

Edited May 23, 2020 by rickygoo

[Dick_Turpin]

5 minutes ago, Miffed said:

Its not whether Monk is the man, I’m still on the fence, but a big big clear out is definitely needed.
 

Even Bruce said so

I don't doubt that but if that clear out ends up with an even worse team because the manager isn't up to it then you start at worse than square 1. 

[Guest]

Just now, @owlstalk said:

 

So you'd give in to the 2 most popular members of staff every time they kick off about something?

And how do you think would that affect the rest of the workforce?

 

As said, how do you know this is the case. Plus the post I made was in reply to someone saying what if they are the 2 most poplar players in the dressing room and the decision you have made to remove them has resulted in the team turning their back on you in terms of effort.

Of course I wouldn't give them free reign, we were talking about different regimes to mange specific training needs.

 

Notice you haven't replied to Monks performance in relation to any of these points regarding his effective management:

 

Results improving- No

Performances improving - No

Any signs of effective ways to improve the drop in results and performances - No

Loan signings made in January having a positive impact on the results and performances - No

 

Least goals at home in the division

2 goals at home in 16 first halves

2nd worst record in the division since Christmas - only bettered by Hull who sold their 2 best players in January and beat us at Hillsborough in January. 

Conceding goals for fun including losing the last 2 league games before half-time

Tactical nous that all too often results in half time substitutions

Playing the most creative attacking player in the team as a wing-back when nobody has ever considered playing him in any sort of role with defensive responsibility.

 

But yeah, it all boils down to the fact people don't like him because he dropped Hutchinson and Westwood........ 

 

 

 

[Miffed]

19 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

If they were the 2 most popular players in the dressing room why choose to rock the boat to the extent that everything blows up? Not a good management decision.

 

The facts I have just posted speak for themselves.

 

So let’s say hypothetically that there are 2 members of staff who can turn up at what time they want, don’t have to turn up every day, get Christmas off, get other perks such as an executive box, get paid more than anyone who has recently joined the company.

 

Do you think that would go down well? It certainly wouldn’t with me (and others) at my place of work 

[Dick_Turpin]

8 minutes ago, Miffed said:

Its not whether Monk is the man, I’m still on the fence, but a big big clear out is definitely needed.
 

Even Bruce said so

It's a bit of an obvious thing to say we need a clear out. There's no guarantee that clear out will result in better players - especially given we will probably have no money to spend.  We'll be relying on having a manager who can spot a player who provides good value and can build a team from scratch.  A Jack Charlton no less. Forgive me if I think giving Monk that job is going to end in disaster. 

[@owlstalk]

1 minute ago, Miffed said:

So let’s say hypothetically that there are 2 members of staff who can turn up at what time they want, don’t have to turn up every day, get Christmas off, get other perks such as an executive box, get paid more than anyone who has recently joined the company.

 

Do you think that would go down well? It certainly wouldn’t with me (and others) at my place of work 

 

Of course it wouldn't

It would lead to all kinds of issues in ANY workplace at any time