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Hutch has probably been my favourite player since he joined. I do think that now is the time to part ways though. I don't have a problem with all players being expected to train daily. Ideally this is made clear at the beginning of contracts but becomes complicated when managers change mid contract/season.

Thanks for your efforts Sam; good luck with your future career and, more importantly, your wellbeing

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56 minutes ago, Beholder said:

Glad his version has come out. 

 

I'm with him on this. One size fits all training regimes shouldn't be applied to everyone. 

 

He is a unique case and knows his own body.

 

Sounds like Monk has been a bully and disregarded his individual needs.

 

This wrecked our season because Hutch is a key player. 

Ideally Hutch would have been allowed to continue his existing training regime until the end of the season and then released if Monk wants a policy of players training every day. Then again maybe it's feasible that things would have come to a head anyway if Sam had sought the likelihood of a new contract being offered. I guess we'll never know all the details.

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All those people in this thread saying you should let your best players do as they please, and train once a week if they want because they're our best players...


Yet I bet if the same rule applied to someone at THEIR work they'd be the first to kick off about it

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, @owlstalk said:

 

 

All those people in this thread saying you should let your best players do as they please, and train once a week if they want because they're our best players...


Yet I bet if the same rule applied to someone at THEIR work they'd be the first to kick off about it

 

No one has said free reign, just a different regime at times tailored to their individual needs. Not everyone in the workplace is treated in exactly the same way if they have physical issues that prevent them from doing certain aspects of a job. 

 

Also, if you think certain players in the squad would have been upset because others had what were deemed to be 'easier' training regimes then you would have expected them to be happier and improve their own commitment, motivation and performance once this had been stopped by the management. Doesn't appear to be the case does it?

Edited by hirstyboywonder

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2 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

No one has said free reign, just a different regime at times tailored to their individual needs. Not everyone in the workplace is treated in exactly the same way if they have physical issues that prevent them from doing certain aspects of a job. 

 


Yeah but let's be 100% honest here

If someone at work was allowed to come in when they want to, work on days they want to, but always got the nod for the extra pay overtime then you would kick off

 

That's not criticism by the way


It's human nature

It's what humans do


They feel aggrieved

 

Same with football - no difference - same human nature, same actions, same feelings

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1 hour ago, rickygoo said:

 

If there's a link between banishing two players and a subsequent slump in morale and results I'd say that was evidence that the club - or rather the manager - might have made the wrong decision. 

 

I don't agree that falling out with two managers - although according to Monk they haven't fallen out have they? - necessarily makes them bad eggs. It's circumstantial evidence. Anyway, I just wanted the best team on the pitch and in my opinion that wasn't happening under Jos and Monk. They aren't managers whose judgement I trust fully - they look like peas from the same pod to me - negative, bit dour etc. All gleaned from pressers and interviews of course - apparently Kenny Dalglish is delightful when he's not on the telly! 

 

Obviously Hutchinson isn't coming back so that's all water under the bridge - and Christ knows what will happen with Westwood - it looks like there's no way back for him. It's a right mess and Monk's general demeanour and response to our collapse doesn't convince me he's the man to lead us out of it. 

 

But Chansiri has much more information on all this so he has to go with what he thinks is right. When to get rid is a tricky decision and probably the most important he has to make. I don't envy him. 

 

You can add dour tactics to the list of negatives, Dalglish never had that problem. Of course he had better tools to work with but the lack of a positive approach on the pitch has spread to the stands and before the lockdown there was a very downbeat resigned inevitability around the club as a whole. 

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3 minutes ago, @owlstalk said:

 


Yeah but let's be 100% honest here

If someone at work was allowed to come in when they want to, work on days they want to, but always got the nod for the extra pay overtime then you would kick off

 

That's not criticism by the way


It's human nature

It's what humans do


They feel aggrieved

 

Same with football - no difference - same human nature, same actions, same feelings

 

Glad all these team mates in his workplace feeling aggrieved have had the issue lifted and are performing with greater spirit, belief, attitude and performance since the management took action on this......,.

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Just now, hirstyboywonder said:

 

You can add dour tactics to the list of negatives, Dalglish never had that problem. Of course he had better tools to work with but the lack of a positive approach on the pitch has spread to the stands and before the lockdown there was a very downbeat resigned inevitability around the club as a whole. 

The press conference when Monk was appointed was the most downbeat new manager one I've ever seen. Didn't give me much encouragement.  So I was pleasantly surprised at Christmas when we were third. I was premature I fear. 

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Just now, hirstyboywonder said:

 

Glad all these team mates in his workplace feeling aggrieved have had the issue lifted and are performing with greater spirit, belief, attitude and performance since the management took action on this......,.

 


You don't know what's gone off at Christmas mate.

Have the players been told who's not getting new contracts for example?

 

Was there a massive fight at the Christmas night out?

 

etc

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Just now, @owlstalk said:

 


You don't know what's gone off at Christmas mate.

Have the players been told who's not getting new contracts for example?

 

Was there a massive fight at the Christmas night out?

 

etc

 

Probably not a good idea either then? 

 

If there was a massive bust up then why haven't trouble makers been removed? 

 

The job of the manager is to address any such issues. 

 

We haven't suffered a dip in form, we have become one of the worst performing teams in the country over a period of around a third of a season and there have been little if any positive signs from the manager on and off the pitch in terms of addressing this.

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3 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

If there was a massive bust up then why haven't trouble makers been removed? 

 

The job of the manager is to address any such issues. 



Let's say a couple of players were a massive problem


So the manager (as it's his job to address any such issues) decides to get them out of the way of the players he wants to work with, so freezes them out.

And let's assume they're two of the most popular players at the club.

And let's say that the whole issue upsets the workplace so much that there's a dip in form


What happens is that the fans back the players and never the manager


I'm not saying that's the case here with Hutchinson and Westwood btw - I'm just using a hypothetical scenario.

So the fans back the players, scream for them to come back and for the manager to go

New manager comes in, and a couple of players are a massive problem

 

etc etc etc

Anyone who's managed any business will understand this scenario all too well, and will recognise and understand how it works if you give one member of staff favours or allowances (whether fairly nor not) over others


Anyone who's NOT been a manager of people/teams won't understand and will think it's way simple to fix
 

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6 minutes ago, @owlstalk said:

 


You don't know what's gone off at Christmas mate.

Have the players been told who's not getting new contracts for example?

 

Was there a massive fight at the Christmas night out?

 

etc


Out of interest,

 

What do you think/know has happened?

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, @owlstalk said:

 

 

All those people in this thread saying you should let your best players do as they please, and train once a week if they want because they're our best players...


Yet I bet if the same rule applied to someone at THEIR work they'd be the first to kick off about it

The rule does apply at all workplaces. Employers are legally required to make reasonable adjustment to accommodate an employees physical or mental conditions.

Edited by kobayashi

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13 minutes ago, @owlstalk said:

 


You don't know what's gone off at Christmas mate.

Have the players been told who's not getting new contracts for example?

 

Was there a massive fight at the Christmas night out?

 

etc

What fight?! When?! Who?!:biggrin:

 

sheffield star tomorrow morning

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, @owlstalk said:

 


Yeah but let's be 100% honest here

If someone at work was allowed to come in when they want to, work on days they want to, but always got the nod for the extra pay overtime then you would kick off

 

That's not criticism by the way


It's human nature

It's what humans do


They feel aggrieved

 

Same with football - no difference - same human nature, same actions, same feelings

 

To use your analogy.

 

On the other hand, what if it was someone who was popular with their work colleagues, were their friends and always grafted and led from the front when it mattered even though they had to do certain light duties due to a health problem.

 

What if that person was then banished from the workplace and sent home because the management refused to give them light duties.

 

Maybe his fellow workers would think WTF you cant do that and say to the management that's out of order. It could create a very bad working enviroment with less productivity as a result.

 

Edited by Tommy Crawshaw
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11 minutes ago, @owlstalk said:



Let's say a couple of players were a massive problem


So the manager (as it's his job to address any such issues) decides to get them out of the way of the players he wants to work with, so freezes them out.

And let's assume they're two of the most popular players at the club.

And let's say that the whole issue upsets the workplace so much that there's a dip in form


What happens is that the fans back the players and never the manager


I'm not saying that's the case here with Hutchinson and Westwood btw - I'm just using a hypothetical scenario.

So the fans back the players, scream for them to come back and for the manager to go

New manager comes in, and a couple of players are a massive problem

 

etc etc etc

Anyone who's managed any business will understand this scenario all too well, and will recognise and understand how it works if you give one member of staff favours or allowances (whether fairly nor not) over others


Anyone who's NOT been a manager of people/teams won't understand and will think it's way simple to fix
 

 

I've managed people/teams mate, not always as black and white as you infer.

 

The fans aren't specifically on Monk's back because he cast aside Westwood and Hutchinson. Monk is rightly being questioned because we have barely got a result in 3 months of football and not only that, we don't look like getting a result, play dour football and keep getting hammered inside 45 minutes.

We are a shadow of a team and can't even set up to be difficult to beat which many managers are at least able to instill when the team are struggling to perform well. Every team in this division has been better than us since Christmas.

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1 minute ago, Tommy Crawshaw said:

 

To use your analogy.

 

On the other hand, what if it was someone who was popular with their work colleagues, were their friends and always grafted and led from the front when it mattered even though they had to do certain light duties due to a health problem.

 

What if that person was then banished from the workplace and sent home because the management refused to give them light duties.

 

Maybe the other workers would think WTF you cant do that and say to the management that's out of order. It could create a very bad working enviroment with less productivity as a result.

 

 

 


100% 

Exactly


That's my point


Managing people is complex


Some posts in this thread are naive in how they believe managing a team/workforce is.

Manage one or two people in a certain way and it can rock the entire workforce

Similarly let one or two people do what they want and it can rock the entire workforce


It's tricky, it's managing people, it's also trying to create a happy balanced team/workforce by creating the right ethic, desire, ambition etc

I think those who have never managed people won't understand it

Example - Allowing Tracy to go home with period pain (quite rightly - I've done this many times) can create some serious agitation for Lisa and Mandy who won't understand the reason Tracy has gone home early. Allow Tracy to do it three or four times and you can have an issue on your hands.

Sounds petty? Sounds unbelieveable? Sounds like something that's easily managed? 

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Just now, hirstyboywonder said:

 

The fans aren't specifically on Monk's back because he cast aside Westwood and Hutchinson.


Yes they are.

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8 minutes ago, unkastav said:

What fight?! When?! Who?!:biggrin:

 

sheffield star tomorrow morning

 

No chance of anyone reading that so we will still be in the dark! WTF:

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1 minute ago, @owlstalk said:


Yes they are.

 

Some are using it as part of the reason to have a dig at him.

 

Are you suggesting that the fact we have been the worst performing team in the division results wise for 3 months with performances to match is not an issue? 

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