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Clubs demand Sheffield Wednesday points deduction


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50 minutes ago, Frazzlebeak said:

Having been out of the house for an hour and comeback and looked at my post, I apologise unreservedly to Grandad and Vulva for my completely over the top reaction to their posts. No need for it.

 

 

No need,but top man 

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1 minute ago, Animis said:

 

I see - thought you meant the DRC. Wouldn't these historical costs have been depreciated by now?

Just theoretically, the stadium was included at the said valuation you mentioned, but it was a required disclosure back then to include the historic cost and what the depreciation would be if it wasn't valued.

 

Always part of the issue that the value had gone from 22m to 60m in 4 years 

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41 minutes ago, Suzuki_San said:

Did I just see some self awareness and a genuine apology, online?!!?

 

:wub:

 

I’ve been keeping count for ten years now and in total this is just the third time anyone on the entire internet has admitted they could have been wrong about anything.

 

Savour this moment

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5 minutes ago, mkowl said:

Just theoretically, the stadium was included at the said valuation you mentioned, but it was a required disclosure back then to include the historic cost and what the depreciation would be if it wasn't valued.

 

Always part of the issue that the value had gone from 22m to 60m in 4 years 

 

The DRC method would look to replace Hillsborough's output - i.e. capacity of say 40k at another site, then depreciate.The must be a significant reduction % applied in the value to account for lack of investment at Hillsborough over the last 25 years or so. Save for the new pitch and scoreboard, and possibly the odd refurb behind the South Stand, there's been little or no investment.

 

As you say, to go from £22.25m in 2015 to £60 in 2019 takes some doing. The replacement site land values, and construction costs haven't gone up more that inflation so why the change?

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2 hours ago, bigdan2003 said:

Remember when football was more about the sport rather than the accounts and money? The fact fans and media talk about this in great detail is a sad indictment of where we’re at with football right now.

 

 

Back in the days when Dave Ricjhards was a hero?

 

 

1 hour ago, Frazzlebeak said:

Having been out of the house for an hour and comeback and looked at my post, I apologise unreservedly to Grandad and Vulva for my completely over the top reaction to their posts. No need for it.



Give over ya gret girls blouse. I didnt take offence.


"The best poster on Owlstalk by far" - Kaven Walker

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11 minutes ago, Animis said:

 

The DRC method would look to replace Hillsborough's output - i.e. capacity of say 40k at another site, then depreciate.The must be a significant reduction % applied in the value to account for lack of investment at Hillsborough over the last 25 years or so. Save for the new pitch and scoreboard, and possibly the odd refurb behind the South Stand, there's been little or no investment.

 

As you say, to go from £22.25m in 2015 to £60 in 2019 takes some doing. The replacement site land values, and construction costs haven't gone up more that inflation so why the change?

Because £60m was the figure needed to show a profit in regards to ffp?

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20 minutes ago, Animis said:

 

The DRC method would look to replace Hillsborough's output - i.e. capacity of say 40k at another site, then depreciate.The must be a significant reduction % applied in the value to account for lack of investment at Hillsborough over the last 25 years or so. Save for the new pitch and scoreboard, and possibly the odd refurb behind the South Stand, there's been little or no investment.

 

As you say, to go from £22.25m in 2015 to £60 in 2019 takes some doing. The replacement site land values, and construction costs haven't gone up more that inflation so why the change?

 

Aye, that's certainly some rate of depreciation. WTF:

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7 hours ago, mkowl said:

Of course the ground sale is a legal transaction. Groups of companies transfer properties around all the time. I have a client at the moment splitting out properties from his trading business. I could sell my own house to my company - though only if stupid. 

 

The EFL cannot determine the legality of this as a transaction. 

 

They can argue 2 things

 

1) Whether it was a market value transaction - but that is simply to adjust the FFP calcs. The accounts remain the same

 

2) That they do not agree the transaction was in the 31st July 2018 accounts. This is a high bar because as long argued if our auditors have signed off on this, presumably on the back of significant evidence available eg binding legal contracts then how can the EFLs opinion be more right. Basically if you are saying the Club, its lawyers and auditors are wrong, certainly the latter two are going to fight that. I can promise you that would be your professional reputation at stake, huge risk of a regulatory body review of your conduct and the potential of a PI claim to boot if your advice to the Club was wrong. 

 

So there is so much more involved in this. Notwithstanding that HMRC might get interested if there is any corp tax due on the sale. This just seems to be a transaction between connected companies not a group so it's not exempt. The 14 month accounting period this transaction was part of makes that computation a little more interesting just because of how the rules work. 


Quite confusing stuff. In your opinion do you think we will get charged/points deducted by the EFL? 

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DRC is a valuation technique. Not a chartered surveyor so can't profess to understand it but it was explained to me as follows

 

Step 1 - You calculate the cost in today's terms of re-building the stadium to the same specification - but as new 

 

Step 2 - you then assess the useful life of the stadium

 

Step 3 - you assess how many years into that useful life you are 

 

So the real key number is the hypothetical value of building a stadium with the capacity of Hillsborough in a similar style with similar facilities

 

Anyone got any ideas but I would start the bidding at 120m

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3 minutes ago, alehousekid said:

Because £60m was the figure needed to show a profit in regards to ffp?

 

Its the implication of course. The problem is, like MK states for the profession of accountancy, property professionals are bound by similar rules/standards.

 

£60m is the actual value, as signed of by the firm who did the valuation. I just can't see what has changed in their assessment of value from the same method/exercise in 2015.

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Just now, WalthamOwl said:


Quite confusing stuff. In your opinion do you think we will get charged/points deducted by the EFL? 

 

I have no idea - I suppose I have a degree of faith in the professionals behind all this and that if the EFL start arguing the legitimacy of the accounts there are a lot of vested interests beyond the Club itself to challenge that view. 

 

But i can't give an opinion really as there is a lack of the critical evidence in the public domain

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4 minutes ago, Animis said:

 

Its the implication of course. The problem is, like MK states for the profession of accountancy, property professionals are bound by similar rules/standards.

 

£60m is the actual value, as signed of by the firm who did the valuation. I just can't see what has changed in their assessment of value from the same method/exercise in 2015.

Derby County

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3 minutes ago, mkowl said:

DRC is a valuation technique. Not a chartered surveyor so can't profess to understand it but it was explained to me as follows

 

Step 1 - You calculate the cost in today's terms of re-building the stadium to the same specification - but as new 

 

Step 2 - you then assess the useful life of the stadium

 

Step 3 - you assess how many years into that useful life you are 

 

So the real key number is the hypothetical value of building a stadium with the capacity of Hillsborough in a similar style with similar facilities

 

Anyone got any ideas but I would start the bidding at 120m

 

That's about it - so about 50% rate applied depreciation for Hillsborough. Derby started from a different point as their stadium is newer and has more ancillary facilities - therefore a small % depreciation rate. Their valuation was £80m so seems about right although they have a small capacity - maybe they value a 'replacement' pride park at a larger capacity?

 

Reading's valuation was £26.5m but their capacity is 24k, so cheaper to replace.

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19 minutes ago, Animis said:

 

That's about it - so about 50% rate applied depreciation for Hillsborough. Derby started from a different point as their stadium is newer and has more ancillary facilities - therefore a small % depreciation rate. Their valuation was £80m so seems about right although they have a small capacity - maybe they value a 'replacement' pride park at a larger capacity?

 

Reading's valuation was £26.5m but their capacity is 24k, so cheaper to replace.

 

That would be the methodology, so a few ifs and buts.

 

If you look back the Kop roof was 1m in 1986.

 

South Stand extension was that 7m

 

It's not about replacing to the same standard we see today but the same specification at today's engineering standards 

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I haven't read the thread

 

I'd like to know how many clubs outside the Championship are advocating a points deduction for us

 

I should imagine all League One will be

 

They'll all be salivating at the thought of having Wednesday and our massive away following in League One again

 

I can almost hear the League One Chairmen counting the money already


Just a bloke, who used up all his luck in one go when he met his wife.

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Valuation of commercial property isn't straightforward. The value can often be more about the lease than the bricks and mortar. For instance, an empty shop in a town centre isn't worth a great deal but sign a 25 year lease with Marks and Spencer and its a good solid investment and worth much more. If Chansiri has a lease with the club it would make the transaction more credible and if it is for say £3m-£4m a year for 25 years,  it would back up the £60m valuation as you would expect a return of 4 - 6% if renting to a  'blue chip' company which Chansiri would be classed as based on his wealth.

 

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1 hour ago, Nut said:

Valuation of commercial property isn't straightforward. The value can often be more about the lease than the bricks and mortar. For instance, an empty shop in a town centre isn't worth a great deal but sign a 25 year lease with Marks and Spencer and its a good solid investment and worth much more. If Chansiri has a lease with the club it would make the transaction more credible and if it is for say £3m-£4m a year for 25 years,  it would back up the £60m valuation as you would expect a return of 4 - 6% if renting to a  'blue chip' company which Chansiri would be classed as based on his wealth.

 

 

problem is football grounds are valued using DRC method not investment method. Interestingly Derby did structure a lease in their deal, and not sure why DC didn't?

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