Clubs demand Sheffield Wednesday points deduction

[owls-swfc]

2 minutes ago, Royal_D said:

The owners biggest mistake by far was not selling Forestieri when it was all kicking off,  the fan base would’ve absolutely imploded but we needed a big decision from the owner and unfortunately he lacked the football expertise to make the right call 

Disagree a bit there R.D., since the same fan base were collectively demanding the signing of Rhodes and he duly obliged........ It works both ways! 

[shandypants]

4 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

We have a 'valid' ground sale. The question is over the year of sale, not the sale itself. If we lose the case then surely the ground sale is put in the following years accounts and we are OK P&S wise for a couple if years?

Thought this myself. Would it be in our interest For the ground sale to be for a later date (assuming that we aren’t effectively relegated and fined heavily). 

[The Night-Owl]

1 hour ago, SwellOwl said:

If we sold Bannan, Lee for good money and brought in new blood, who knows where we might have been?

 

Probably wouldn't have been in such a state now. If we had sold, when our better players were of value and replaced them with players on the rise or strengthened areas and attributes, we clearly lacked in after Wembley. On the other hand, would we have reinvested wisely what we could have got for them at the time? We've been directionless and leaderless, in so many areas on and off the pitch. We need to be much more sensible and forward thinking over the coming years or we'll keep making the same mistakes and regressing.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, owls-swfc said:

Disagree a bit there R.D., since the same fan base were collectively demanding the signing of Rhodes and he duly obliged........ It works both ways! 

Which was another poor decision, don’t get what ur disagreeing with ?  

[owls-swfc]

1 minute ago, Royal_D said:

Which was another poor decision, don’t get what ur disagreeing with ?  

You elude to fan base wanting DC to get rid of FF,  but your not accepting the fan base encouraged DC to sign Rhodes... 

[Brommers]

1 hour ago, owls-swfc said:

25 pages (not reading thru all that) ...Cut to the chase... Are we: 

(a) F***** ? 

(b) Awaiting potentially being (a) ? 

(c) Absolved of being (a) ? 

 

 

 

 

 

Errr, we don't know. Will need at least another 50 pages of speculation and complete b0llox before we find out.

[Brommers]

20 minutes ago, owls-swfc said:

You elude to fan base wanting DC to get rid of FF,  but your not accepting the fan base encouraged DC to sign Rhodes... 

Think he'd put the fan base would have kicked off if FF was sold rather than wanting him sold. 

[Guest mkowl]

Of course the ground sale is a legal transaction. Groups of companies transfer properties around all the time. I have a client at the moment splitting out properties from his trading business. I could sell my own house to my company - though only if stupid. 

 

The EFL cannot determine the legality of this as a transaction. 

 

They can argue 2 things

 

1) Whether it was a market value transaction - but that is simply to adjust the FFP calcs. The accounts remain the same

 

2) That they do not agree the transaction was in the 31st July 2018 accounts. This is a high bar because as long argued if our auditors have signed off on this, presumably on the back of significant evidence available eg binding legal contracts then how can the EFLs opinion be more right. Basically if you are saying the Club, its lawyers and auditors are wrong, certainly the latter two are going to fight that. I can promise you that would be your professional reputation at stake, huge risk of a regulatory body review of your conduct and the potential of a PI claim to boot if your advice to the Club was wrong. 

 

So there is so much more involved in this. Notwithstanding that HMRC might get interested if there is any corp tax due on the sale. This just seems to be a transaction between connected companies not a group so it's not exempt. The 14 month accounting period this transaction was part of makes that computation a little more interesting just because of how the rules work. 

[Guest mkowl]

Basically on the accounts the EFL can't argue "balance of probabilities". Their rules state the audited accounts are the starting point. Yes it permits that figure is adjusted for allowed expenditure or said market value adjustments but to question the legitimacy of the starting point then that is a huge step.

 

Again you do see it with HMRC on occasion, I have engaged in a few battles myself. But for the EFL to do that is another matter entirely and I can see a QC making huge points on that

[teddybeararmy]

12 minutes ago, mkowl said:

Of course the ground sale is a legal transaction. Groups of companies transfer properties around all the time. I have a client at the moment splitting out properties from his trading business. I could sell my own house to my company - though only if stupid. 

 

The EFL cannot determine the legality of this as a transaction. 

 

They can argue 2 things

 

1) Whether it was a market value transaction - but that is simply to adjust the FFP calcs. The accounts remain the same

 

2) That they do not agree the transaction was in the 31st July 2018 accounts. This is a high bar because as long argued if our auditors have signed off on this, presumably on the back of significant evidence available eg binding legal contracts then how can the EFLs opinion be more right. Basically if you are saying the Club, its lawyers and auditors are wrong, certainly the latter two are going to fight that. I can promise you that would be your professional reputation at stake, huge risk of a regulatory body review of your conduct and the potential of a PI claim to boot if your advice to the Club was wrong. 

 

So there is so much more involved in this. Notwithstanding that HMRC might get interested if there is any corp tax due on the sale. This just seems to be a transaction between connected companies not a group so it's not exempt. The 14 month accounting period this transaction was part of makes that computation a little more interesting just because of how the rules work. 

The puzzling thing about point 2 is that if this transaction had already taken place,why did dc say we were in serious trouble with ffp at the fans forum later in the year?

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, mkowl said:

 

 

So there is so much more involved in this. Notwithstanding that HMRC might get interested if there is any corp tax due on the sale. This just seems to be a transaction between connected companies not a group so it's not exempt. The 14 month accounting period this transaction was part of makes that computation a little more interesting just because of how the rules work. 

 

Surely you mean Capital Gains tax? Not Corp tax?

Thats an interesting one - I guess the sale of a company asset to a 3rd party (even one which has the same sole director) might generate CGT? I know the rules are different for people overseas - would that count? Even though the 2 companies are based solely in the UK?

How much is CGT these days? Is it still 20%? So the £60m 'sale' to himself could potentially generate a tax bill of £12m? As weve not made a profit for zillions of years - do the accounts still publish the accumulated tax credit? I now they used to and it was in the £millions

[Guest mkowl]

No its corporation tax on chargeable gains. The entity selling the stadium was Sheffield Wednesday Football Club Limited. 

 

A company does not pay CGT

 

The tax residency of DC has zero bearing on this, notwithstanding tax in this case would be due as it's a UK situation asset. 

[vulva]

8 minutes ago, Grandad said:

 

Surely you mean Capital Gains tax? Not Corp tax?

Thats an interesting one - I guess the sale of a company asset to a 3rd party (even one which has the same sole director) might generate CGT? I know the rules are different for people overseas - would that count? Even though the 2 companies are based solely in the UK?

How much is CGT these days? Is it still 20%? So the £60m 'sale' to himself could potentially generate a tax bill of £12m? As weve not made a profit for zillions of years - do the accounts still publish the accumulated tax credit? I now they used to and it was in the £millions

Gains within a company are taxed at 19% from memory. It was coming down to 17% but that was scrapped. May be wrong on that. MK will confirm. 

 

CGT 20%, 18/28% on property. For individuals. After allowances. 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, mkowl said:

No its corporation tax on chargeable gains. The entity selling the stadium was Sheffield Wednesday Football Club Limited. 

 

A company does not pay CGT

 

The tax residency of DC has zero bearing on this, notwithstanding tax in this case would be due as it's a UK situation asset. 

Surely the gain was negligible when take against losses as a whole over the period since DC joined us?

[Guest mkowl]

The chargeable gain within the company would be

 

Sale proceeds

 

Less Original cost (though probably use a March 82 value instead)

 

Less Capital improvements

 

Less Indexation allowance (inflation uplift) though this is frozen at 31st December 2017 figure.

 

This chargeable gain is a separate entry in the corporation tax computation.

 

But the rules would permit trading losses of the same period to be offset against the chargeable gain. 

 

The interesting aspect as an accountancy nerd is that this was an extended accounting period - 14 months. Under the rules it is split into a 12 month period then a 2 month one. Now normally you would just prorata the trading loss but the gain is of course specially  in the final 2 month period. Can we only offset 2/14 of the loss against the gain so in fact corp tax is due ?

 

This would be at 19% but the gain ain't 60m for sure. No idea what it would be without the data

 

And we have undoubtedly made a trading loss to 31 July 19 which can be carried back against the gain - but that probably has not been filed with HMRC yet

 

 

[Guest mkowl]

4 minutes ago, Grandad said:

Surely the gain was negligible when take against losses as a whole over the period since DC joined us?

Not how the rules work 

 

Trading losses can be carried forward for sure but only against future trading profits.

 

The sale of the stadium for tax purposes falls into the chargeable gains regime and there are restrictions about how trading losses can be used. You can't use historic trading losses to offset a chargeable gain. 

 

Those in year yep, the next year losses as well can be carried back. 

 

There are global restrictions on losses as well that could apply

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Just now, mkowl said:

Not how the rules work 

 

Trading losses can be carried forward for sure but only against future trading profits.

 

The sale of the stadium for tax purposes falls into the chargeable gains regime and there are restrictions about how trading losses can be used. You can't use historic trading losses to offset a chargeable gain. 

 

Those in year yep, the next year losses as well can be carried back. 

 

There are global restrictions on losses as well that could apply

 

Jeez

 

So our 'paper' transaction could have generated a huge tax bill? How much do you think?

Would it all be payable in one hit? or staged as the payments have been staged (Im fully aware we havent been paid)

[vulva]

Can’t these ‘gains’ be offset against losses in the same corporate structure? 

[Guest mkowl]

13 minutes ago, vulva said:

Can’t these ‘gains’ be offset against losses in the same corporate structure? 

 

As far as I understand this is just a transaction between connected companies under common control of DC. That is not classified as a "group" for said purposes

[Harrysgame]

10 hours ago, pat blondeau said:

Leeds have sold Wood, Jansson and Roofe in the last few years who were all fan favourites. They seem to have coped alright?

 

Our record sale before Lucas João was still Chris 

Funny think is that we have had various owners and not one of them has grasped that you need to buy and sell players to increase profits. Why is it such a problem for us?

Is one issue we are always chasing the dream, beginning to think accepting mediocrity for a couple of seasons so we can build might be a good thing. Although not sure how patient we are as a group especially with the other half doing well.