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Birley Owl 1867

Players chucked Monk under the bus

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1 hour ago, Wednesday_Jack said:


It might have been shocking....but from a slightly different perspective, fans have been calling for changes and for monk to try something different!! He tries something different for 45 minutes and still gets slated. 

The old Alex Ferguson quote. If you listen to the fans, you end up sitting with them.

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1 hour ago, kobayashi said:

Proven in what way? The only entries on his managerial CV are his various appointments and subsequent sackings a few months later. Nothing he has done or is doing suggests he is the man to rebuild Wednesday.

Leeds 16/17

 

Brought in some key players that season...

Kyle Bartley, Luke Ayling, Kemar Roofe, Pontus Jansson and Pablo Hernandez. 


Kalvin Phillips and Ronaldo Vieira were both made first team players under Monk that year. Combined 13 apps between them before Monk arrived. Ones now being watched by Southgate and the other sold for over £7m. 
 

Also turned Chris Wood into a monster. Got him scoring 27 goals that season when he’d only managed 13 the previous season. 
 

Fair enough if you don’t like him, say his footballs boring or whatever but he did put down the solid foundations of a top Championship team. 

Edited by 0114

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9 minutes ago, billyblack said:

And. So what, blaming the players because of what we paid or where they came from is meaningless and has no bearing on our performances at all.


I just wanted to know if the OP is blaming players like Lee, Bannan and Lees that have been good servants to the club but are struggling now.

Or is he blaming lads like Dawson and Palmer that have come through the academy.
 

Or FF who was shunted out to LWB last night?

 

Or is he blaming Iorfa, Borner? Or the 3 loan lads that have been here a week? Or is it the players who weren’t even in the team last night?

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the scariest and most telling thing is that if Monk goes,Bullens back in charge

Nothing changes and here lays the problem

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2 minutes ago, owlsdreamer said:

the scariest and most telling thing is that if Monk goes,Bullens back in charge

Nothing changes and here lays the problem

Nope. The scariest thing is not having a board to run the club or a director of football to provide guidance and governance for the club and manager.

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Many have blamed the so called 'toxic' or flat atmosphere at home for the poor displays over the last few months. However, one point gained away against the three teams firmly planted in the relegation zone in front of our terrific away fans suggests the players aren't up to it. Both the number of points lost when in the lead coupled with their inability to come back when going behind suggests a very, very weak mentality within the group.

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7 hours ago, nilsson said:


Look at the eleven on the pitch tonight and what they cost;

 

Dawson - Academy

Palmer - Academy

Lees - Free

Iorfa - 200k

Borner - Free

Forestieri - £3m

Bannan - Free/undisclosed?

Lee - Free

Da Cruz - Loan

Windass - Loan

Wickham - Loan
 

Take FF out and that entire team cost about 200k to put together.
 

They were really poor tonight but when it’s a team put together with loans, frees and academy players how much are you expecting from them?

 

Next season we’ll have a complete squad made up of frees and loans. 

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It just feels a bit Jos like to me.

 

Bruce sorted this team out and now we've taken two steps backwards again. Monk can't take all the blame though, that squad just doesn't look interested at the minute and Chansiri is currently too busy gallivanting around Japan to sort this mess out - leading from the top and all that!

 

But at least we tried something different last night. Granted it didn't work but I can't knock the manager for that. 

 

There's a toxic atmosphere between the fans, players, staff and club at the minute. If we don't get it sorted quickly then it could spiral out of control and we could find ourselves in real trouble. You only have to look across the city for a prime example of similar a scenario that resulted in them spending 6 years in League 1. We've got no plan, no identity and no structure.  This summer - with so many players out of contract - is the perfect time to rebuild this squad. Is Monk capable of such a job? Will Chansiri give it the time, investment and effort it requires? Will we be shackled by FFP? Big close season incoming for us.

Edited by Bassett's Allsorts

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I quite like Monk and hope it comes good as the last thing we need is to keep bouncing from one manager to another manager when the other options are just not really any better. 

However I am continually confused with some of the team selections and tactics, it feels like square pegs and round holes. 

He needs to settle on a basic spine in the team, rather than keep chopping and changing. 

If 99% of people on here and at the games can see Bannan is just to deep and not effective, then why can't Monk? 

 

It's easy for me to say this now, but Cruz and Wickham were never going to be the answer, at least not short term. 

As an example I actually thought Murphy was coming good, chipping in with a few goals and finding his feet, then we sign 3 players and he is left out, he must feel well chuffed off. 

But more to the point, what does a situation like that do to a players confidence, they probably feel like f it, it don't matter if I play well or not so why bother. 

At half time last night, if the bizarre Forestieri experiment wasn't working (no sh#t) then rather than bring him off, actually play him in his most effective position and change the team around. 

 

Saturday will be very very interesting and I think will be the defining point in our season. 

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Players didn’t even start playing for Agnew/Clement either. And even though our form picked up when Bruce returned from his holiday. But when we were in ‘squeak’ of the playoffs they bottled it and started their usual downturn in performance. 

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The whole Bruce comparison really needs to stop, the guy was in charge for a grand total of 3 months during an actual season. Jos and Monk both came in and got similar results as Bruce within their first 3 months in charge. People forget Jos got us putting 5 past teams and Monk had us 3rd in the league at christmas. The evidence suggests the players would have done the same to Bruce as they had done to the others.

 

I feel Monk got desperate last night and probably feels the dressing room is gone. I don't even feel his tactics were that bad last night, we created chances and had 17 shots on goal, yet only managed one on target. That responsibility hangs on the players who just do not look like they're trying. At times there were 4 Luton players surrounding one of our players last night, at no stage did we ever put in any commitment like that last night to try and win the ball back. An overhaul is needed in the summer, whether that includes Monk or not depends on if he survives until the end of the season, but this squad needs gutted of the 2015/16 players like Bannan, Lee, Hutch, Westwood, Nuhiu, Forestieri, and a reboot is required to be able to move on as a club and a team.

Edited by AyrshireOwl
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20 minutes ago, Bassett's Allsorts said:

It just feels a bit Jos like to me.

 

Bruce sorted this team out and now we've taken two steps backwards again. Monk can't take all the blame though, that squad just doesn't look interested at the minute and Chansiri is currently too busy gallivanting around Japan to sort this mess out - leading from the top and all that!

 

But at least we tried something different last night. Granted it didn't work but I can't knock the manager for that. 

 

There's a toxic atmosphere between the fans, players, staff and club at the minute. If we don't get it sorted quickly then it could spiral out of control and we could find ourselves in real trouble. You only have to look across the city for a prime example of similar a scenario that resulted in them spending 6 years in League 1. We've got no plan, no identity and no structure.  This summer - with so many players out of contract - is the perfect time to rebuild this squad. Is Monk capable of such a job? Will Chansiri give it the time, investment and effort it requires? Will we be shackled by FFP? Big close season incoming for us.

No plan, no identity, no structure....and there is the problem, especially if you add in no leadership or direction (apart from a desire to be promoted in 3 years)

 

I think Bruce was addressing these issues but we are now just short termist and it doesn't work

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Wigan, Barnsley and Luton and we get 1 point. Embarrassing. 

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3 hours ago, Parsons Cross Owl said:

As someone who was there and had to witness that absolute shambles I am still backing him.

 

That performance was down to the players, basics, no heart, no fight, and no desire to work for the badge and the football club.

 

Monk needs to be assessed next season when he has his own team in.

I feel for him, he is a proven manager, and the longer he is here, the better we become.

 

Do we really need to start again?

This is the problem, will he be able to bring 'his' own team in?

 

I don't see it, unless Chansiri has a change of heart and realises that we need to clear the decks of Carlos' deadwood (we have a lot of it) and either accepts the offers put forth or releases them, we are in the same boat next season.

 

We cant keep blaming managers over and over again.

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9 hours ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

Carlos head was turned by the attraction of a PL club, he had lost his desire by that stage as much as any player

He did but the players had stopped playing for him after the Pig game

Jos and his bizarre tactics, formations and selections got himself the sack.

whist his choices were strange, his ability to manage the squad was hampered by the teams insistence of passing the ball to Bannan and shirking the games. It went pretty well his first 4 months in the job.

Bullen is not a manager

didn't stop the players twice stopping playing for him to get him replaced by an actual gaffer. There was a good chance he would have got the job permanently this summer with how we started. The squad put pay to that, Bullen's coaching credibility or not.

Notice you don't mention Bruce

Bruce was here 4 months. Funnily enough, the players was still playing for Monk after 4 months too.

Only you and Monk though playing Forestieri at wing-back was going to work wonders tonight.

He had to try something different. Forestieri at wing back is strange but he was our most creative outlet that first half... so maybe it did. Then Monk subbed him off.

 

The starting 11 last night included Dawson, Borner, Iorfa, Windass, Wickham and Da Cruz, none of whom were involved in 'throwing any previous managers under the bus'. Harris and Murphy came on as sub, they have also only been here a few months How do you assess how they performed?   They were all tug and stopped performing for their manager. Which is strange considering he brought 3 of those in. Someone got to them already.

 

Lees isn't throwing anyone under the bus, he is simply in very poor form, Palmer is what he is, nothing special but didn't do much wrong, hardly a case for throwing Monk under the bus. Forestieri put the effort in considering he must have been as surprised as anyone with what Monk considered an effective position for him. Kieran lee is past his best due to bad injuries, don't think he can be accused of continually throwing managers under the bus. Lees has been in poor form for 3 years now continuously. This is his good form now mate. He's either poo or given up.

Forestieri did rather well in an ineffective position at creating chances.

Lee is the only one, he had nothing to do with Jos, but has lost something due to his injury. That isn't his fault. He can be excused but what isnt excluded is his poo performance yday.

That just leaves Bannan - are you telling me everything for the 4 managers you mention is all Bannan's fault and he is bringing everyone and everything down with him?! Who knows. Things tend to go bad when Bannan stops being any good. 

 

Of course the players have to look at their own contributions but it is the job of the manager to get the best out of them and this is a different bunch to what previous managers have had. The squad has been largely the same now for the past 7 years, with a few additions. It's the same bunch of players.

All in all though, 47 people agree with me that the players have once again thrown their manager to the dogs. Whilst 15 agree with you on your points that the players arent to blame for their poor performances.

 

So yeah.

Edited by Birley Owl 1867

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8 hours ago, pazowl55 said:

Didnt Monk say we tried something different and it didn't work. So by his own admission he knew he got it wrong.

I tell you what we didnt do well last night, and that is play football! They are supposed to be footballers for goodness sake. They get payed a lot too much to turn out a performance which an U13 team would be too ashamed of. It does not matter where the 11 players are playing if they cannot tackle, pass, run, mark up, get into space, cross the ball, head the ball, or have a shot at goal! Out of all the players on the pitch that had a shocking game last, I was most disgusted in Wickham, because he has never lived up to expectations and could hardly be bothered to break into a trot against a team that put in twice as much work as we did and if they not been so poor at finishing, it could have been a lot worse.

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6 hours ago, Birley Owl 1867 said:

Carlos head was turned by the attraction of a PL club, he had lost his desire by that stage as much as any player

He did but the players had stopped playing for him after the Pig game

 

6 hours ago, Birley Owl 1867 said:

Of course the players have to look at their own contributions but it is the job of the manager to get the best out of them and this is a different bunch to what previous managers have had. The squad has been largely the same now for the past 7 years, with a few additions. It's the same bunch of players.

 

Taking first and last at random

 

We beat Leeds 3-0 the week after the Pigs game.

 

The team v Luton

 

Dawson - debut 2016-17

Iorfa - last season

Lees - 2014-15

Borner - this season

Bannan - 2015-16

Lee - 2012-13

Palmer  - 2010-11

Fessi - 2015 -16

Da Cruz - this season

Wickham - this season (don't count previous loan spell)

Windass  - this season

 

so 2 of the 11 were at Wednesday 7 years ago. 

 

Nuhui signed in 2013.  None of Reach, Fox, Hutch, Fletcher, Luongo, Winnall, Rhodes, Moses, Harriss, Murphy etc were here 7 years ago. 

 

I can't be bothered checking the other "facts".

 

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18 hours ago, Birley Owl 1867 said:

Another manager that our beloved players have strung up and chucked under the bus for their own gains. 

 

We wont go down, cos the lads will start putting a shift back in when it looks like we will.

 

That is now Carlos, Jos, Bullen twice and Monk that the players have given up playing for and it is indefensible.

 

Yet some will still solely blame the gaffer.

 

So are you saying that the players are deliberately losing on purpose?

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If Monk has got any sort of a clue, the first two names on the team sheet on Saturday should be Westwood and Hutchinson. If they aren’t he might as well resign.

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9 hours ago, poite said:

 

A bit of fight?

Exactly!!! 

Quite a few people making comparisons to the lot down the lane. 

Their side that got promoted was almost nothing more than frees, cheap buys and until he brought a couple of loans in, the oldest strike duo in the league who cost nothing. Its all about attitude, desire and workrate. its an area we were sadly ignoring over our last few years of recruitment. That said though you can tell the difference when fletcher is playing becouse he's one that will take one for the team, so to speak and why we've missed him so much and not just for his goals. 

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