Jump to content

Can we avoid relegation? A 12pt deduction puts us only 2pts clear of the drop


Recommended Posts

If we did get relegated, I’d take it as far as I could legaly if I were Chansiri.  
 

it’s no longer financial fair play but profit & sustainability and does  losing millions from the relegation plus then having to  have a fire sale on our best players fit under that remit. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, kingsidney said:

If we did get relegated, I’d take it as far as I could legaly if I were Chansiri.  
 

it’s no longer financial fair play but profit & sustainability and does  losing millions from the relegation plus then having to  have a fire sale on our best players fit under that remit. 

We wouldn't get much for any of our players, living in chansiri land with valuations people put on here 

 

 

Edited by WelshOwl74
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, A12owl said:

If DC's allegations are with held it will be put into the 2018-19 season which means we avoided relegation. 

Either way can’t see it being concluded this season. Unless we’ve already lost the arbitration case and disciplinary proceedings are underway there just isn’t time. When brum were docked 9 points the disciplinary commission was originally scheduled to sit from end October, with a hearing at end of February. In the end it ran over until end of March. Unless we’ve been kept in the dark the arbitration is still ongoing and the disciplinary commission not yet constituted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think If we get anything near a 9pt deduction we are down 

if it’s more it’s a certainty 

and if we do go down that is Absolutely 100% Chansiris fault 

probably why he brought this 10 year ticket out trying to get some buys because who will buy a season ticket at that price if we go down 

he’s ruined this football club by biblical proportions if we go down 

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, kingsidney said:

If we did get relegated, I’d take it as far as I could legaly if I were Chansiri.  
 

it’s no longer financial fair play but profit & sustainability and does  losing millions from the relegation plus then having to  have a fire sale on our best players fit under that remit. 

 

3 hours ago, WelshOwl74 said:

We wouldn't get much for any of our players, living in chansiri land with valuations people put on here 

 

 

Many ("most"?) of our players are out of contract at the end of this season, I believe.

Edited by RigBon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/02/2020 at 21:46, RigBon said:

As it stands, if ('when'?) the EFL give us a 12-point deduction, we'd be only two points clear of the bottom three.

 

Can we avoid relegation?

 

(I'm not bedwetting, and certainly don't think the answer is the immediate sacking of Monk, but a glance at the table just got me thinking...)

Yes. Of course we can avoid relegation. There’s a reason why we are higher in the table than the bottom three. We are going through a poor spell but the bottom, say, five teams are just poor teams. 

On 12/02/2020 at 21:53, RigBon said:

Perhaps Chansiri's legal action might stave-off any punishment until next season. Perhaps...

If we are to be punished then we need punishing before this season ends, preferably now. We aren’t going to make the playoffs and it will hinder our summer rebuild if we still have punishment looming over us going into next season. 
 

I think Chansiri has less than a cat in hell’s chance of beating the EFL and, if he does, they’ll just find some other way to sanction us, therefore, I think we ought to bite the pillow, let the EFL bend us over and then reset ready for next season. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, kingsidney said:

If we did get relegated, I’d take it as far as I could legaly if I were Chansiri.  
 

it’s no longer financial fair play but profit & sustainability and does  losing millions from the relegation plus then having to  have a fire sale on our best players fit under that remit. 

Chansiri either needs to convince the rest of the Championship clubs to support his legal action or concede. I can’t understand why both us a Derby are putting our heads on the block to benefit others clubs that we are competing against. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/02/2020 at 14:28, Sefton owl said:

No one knows its just a guessing game. 
 

I can see us being the new sunderland to be honest. 

Really?  Sunderland died thanks to asinine PL contracts  at massive PL markup, doled out as they were floundering in the top flight.

 

Unsustainable in the Championship, a lead Mill around the neck in League One.

 

Wednesday has their spending issues, but in no way do they compare to Sunderland's freefall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mr Farrell said:

Minimum of 12.

Unfortunately I think you're right. The EFL agreed a set of sanctioning guidelines for P&S breaches on 17 September 2018 which were sent out to clubs.

They don't have legal force but they are pretty much agreed as the benchmark. As far as I know they've never been published.

But extrapolating from the judgment of the disiplinary commission in the Birmingham case which has been published (Link) you get someting like the table below.

If the EFL remove the proceeds of the ground sale from our P&S calculations we are into Band 1 territory - i.e. maximum 12 points deduction.

And that is only for the finacial rules breach. There is also discretion to take into account mitigating or aggravating factors which can either reduce the penalty or add up to 9 more points.

What's not clear to me is if the sanctions for the aggravating circumstances of 'miscunduct' (exactly what we don't know) will be imposed on the club or on the individuals charged.

 

Sanctions.png

Edited by HarrowbyOwl
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, HarrowbyOwl said:

Unfortunately I think you're right. The EFL agreed a set of sanctioning guidelines for P&S breaches on 17 September 2018 which were sent out to clubs.

They don't have legal force but they are pretty much agreed as the benchmark. As far as I know they've never been published.

But extrapolating from the judgment of the disiplinary commission in the Birmingham case which has been published (Link) you get someting like the table below.

If the EFL remove the proceeds of the ground sale from our P&S calculations we are into Band 1 territory - i.e. maximum 12 points deduction.

And that is only for the finacial rules breach. There is also discretion to take into account mitigating or aggravating factors which can either reduce the penalty or add up to 9 more points.

What's not clear to me is if the sanctions for the aggravating circumstances of 'miscunduct' (exactly what we don't know) will be imposed on the club or on the individuals charged.

 

Sanctions.png

I’m happy to be corrected but I think we’ve been charged with “cooking the books” rather than overspending. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, HarrowbyOwl said:

If the EFL remove the proceeds of the ground sale from our P&S calculations we are into Band 1 territory - i.e. maximum 12 points deduction.

And that is only for the finacial rules breach. There is also discretion to take into account mitigating or aggravating factors which can either reduce the penalty or add up to 9 more points.

 

So in an absolute nightmare scenario, it could be upto 21pts deducted?! Wow!! 99.9% sure ours won't be that extreme, but it's still a sobering thought!

 

Very insightful comment, btw - thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/02/2020 at 21:53, RigBon said:

Perhaps Chansiri's legal action might stave-off any punishment until next season. Perhaps...

what ****ing punishment? 

you've generally to be guilty of something to be punished, whilst I agree that's not always the case in football, something seems to be holding them up a tad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, shandypants said:

I’m happy to be corrected but I think we’ve been charged with “cooking the books” rather than overspending. 

That's right, but if the book cooking results in the EFL deciding that the ground sale proceeds aren't allowable for the P&S calculation we're back into the overspending penalty + misconduct

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 03/03/2020 at 20:17, sherlyegg said:

Agree but only if 12 points.

Anymore would rather be next season.

Anyhow, still not convinced we will be found guilty.

In the Brum case the members of the EFL Disciplinary Commission were appointed and on 18 October 2018 and directions were made for the preparation of the case with a view to a hearing to commence on 26 February 2019. That means 17 weeks (119 days) were allowed between appointment and hearing. I believe that for arbitration cases a similar timeframe is envisaged.
This is not mentioned specifically in the EFL rules (Link) and procedures ( Link), but is specific in the Standard Directions for FA Rule K arbitration cases. Those Standard Directions are instructive about how the stages of an arbitration case unfold:

 

(i)   within 21 days, the Claimant(s) shall serve its (their) Points of Claim;
(ii)  within 42 days, the Respondent(s) shall serve its (their) Points of Defence;
(iii) within 70 days, the parties shall exchange statements of the witnesses they will rely upon;
(iv)  within 98 days, the parties shall exchange and serve on the Tribunal their written submissions; and
(v)   within 119 days, the hearing shall take place.

(Source)

That, as I said, is for FA Rule K arbitration cases, but I'd be surprised if its not broadly similar for EFL cases. (Note that the overall time is identical to that allowed for the Brum Disciplinary Commission).

What does all that mean? Well, it means that we potentially face back-to-back arbitration and disciplinary cases, which would normally be expected to take 34 weeks, well into August. Under the normal timetable you'd expect the arbitration hearing at the end of April. Of course if we win the arbitration then we may never face a Disciplinary Commission. But if we lose is there any way that a Disciplinary Commission, which would decide the points deduction, to be fast-tracked and concluded before the end of this season? Even starting next week it would have to get to the hearing and judgement in 7 weeks rather than the normal 17. Also, a judjement that late would cause havoc for clubs at the bottom end of the table.

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...