Frozen out players.

[should know better]

14 minutes ago, Hougoumont said:

I must have missed the "toxic, bad apples" interview, When was it?

I think sometimes  the "toxic, bad apples" are the players who just want to win (Roy Keane for example) and can't stand other players not pulling their weight or pulling out of challenges etc.  Unfortunately these players have passion and drive but will voice their opinions, this may upset snowflakes. There may be some players who are different and just want to sit out a match and get paid.  

[sweetsheri]

Fark em both 

 

Get rid 

[prowl]

10 hours ago, Nero said:

Hmmm. I've tried to stay positive about Monks  approach for a couple of hours. I can agree we need some old favourites to leave so that's fine.

But I really cant convince myself yet that Monk has the skills and subtlety to do it properly. He has never done a squad change before. In his 5 terms as manager he's never been in a job long enough to change an inherited team succesfully.

His freeze em out ego battle approach might work in the long run but no one can point to any evidence yet as to why it will. Theres plenty of current evidence that it's going badly.

Results wise since he has decided to go down this route its clearly not working short term and he's presiding over the most boring and sometimes shockingly bad home performances for many years. (players at fault for these of course).

Fair play if he pulls it off from here on in.

 

 

 

 

Results were going down the pan before he froze Hutchinson out. Westwood was dropped because he was costing us goals. 

 

Did you expect Westwood to be allowed to continue making errors without trying an alternative keeper. Monk decided Hutch was one of the reasons we had gone off the boil, why would he play him.

 

Let the manager manage, it's his job on the line. Strange how we sack managers if we go on a bad run but never sack players. Logically you would expect it to be the other way around.

[Plonk]

Good managers manage difficult players for the benefit of the squad. Di Canio was the most difficult player I’ve seen at our club. Atkinson pinned him to the dressing room wall and scared the poo out of him. But Atkinson was a good manager who knew which buttons to press.

 

Monk isn’t fit to be mentioned in the same sentence. It’s quite obvious from the performances that the players aren’t playing for him. My guess is they hate the way they are being told to play. I hate the way he is telling them to play so I can understand why. 

 

During my working life life I worked for some great bosses, and I worked for some complete lobbers. I know who I worked hardest for, and I knew when it was time to leave. Footballers are no different.

[Hougoumont]

15 minutes ago, Plonk said:

Good managers manage difficult players for the benefit of the squad. Di Canio was the most difficult player I’ve seen at our club. Atkinson pinned him to the dressing room wall and scared the poo out of him. But Atkinson was a good manager who knew which buttons to press.

 

Monk isn’t fit to be mentioned in the same sentence. It’s quite obvious from the performances that the players aren’t playing for him. My guess is they hate the way they are being told to play. I hate the way he is telling them to play so I can understand why. 

 

During my working life life I worked for some great bosses, and I worked for some complete lobbers. I know who I worked hardest for, and I knew when it was time to leave. Footballers are no different.

 

Strange you should say that...Wilson is on record as saying he was a model professional, no trouble whatsoever.

[Burnsie]

18 minutes ago, Plonk said:

Good managers manage difficult players for the benefit of the squad. Di Canio was the most difficult player I’ve seen at our club. Atkinson pinned him to the dressing room wall and scared the poo out of him. But Atkinson was a good manager who knew which buttons to press.

 

Monk isn’t fit to be mentioned in the same sentence. It’s quite obvious from the performances that the players aren’t playing for him. My guess is they hate the way they are being told to play. I hate the way he is telling them to play so I can understand why. 

 

During my working life life I worked for some great bosses, and I worked for some complete lobbers. I know who I worked hardest for, and I knew when it was time to leave. Footballers are no different.

And if you'd have said a lobber boss that he's a lobber would you not expect some form of comeback?

[Owls-Fan]

This is now the time when Monk can be assessed in my opinion, since Fletcher has been missing from the starting lineup for the past 8 games we’ve only won twice, but he only had some weaker strikers to pick in his place 
 

He’s now brought in 3-4 attacking players to fill the void of Fletcher’s absence and so there shouldn’t really be any excuses for us not to return to the winning ways we had before Christmas.  Dropping players like Hutch and Westwood is bold and Monk will need his squad to deliver on the pitch to make these decisions seem like good moves 

Edited February 7, 2020 by Owls-Fan

[Burnsie]

34 minutes ago, Plonk said:

Good managers manage difficult players for the benefit of the squad. Di Canio was the most difficult player I’ve seen at our club. Atkinson pinned him to the dressing room wall and scared the poo out of him. But Atkinson was a good manager who knew which buttons to press.

 

Monk isn’t fit to be mentioned in the same sentence. It’s quite obvious from the performances that the players aren’t playing for him. My guess is they hate the way they are being told to play. I hate the way he is telling them to play so I can understand why. 

 

During my working life life I worked for some great bosses, and I worked for some complete lobbers. I know who I worked hardest for, and I knew when it was time to leave. Footballers are no different.

Just noticed that bit too. I know what I'd do if my manager was to physically assult me.... Well there are two options, neither of which would be for the "good of the squad".

[room0035]

We hear this term team player, bad apple etc but in reality the so called big earners at the club are the ones who when they are in the team, the team seem to perform better.

 

Yes Westwood did make a few mistakes this season, when a striker makes a mistake he misses a goal, when a keeper does he costs us a goal, but the issue I have with this is all players made mistakes but we don't banish them from the team. This for me is poor management of the players, some players are arms round the shoulder types, some need a kick up the backside.

 

You then look at the players not playing in Hutch and Westwood the leader on the pitch and not surprisingly the form of the team has dipped with them not in the team.

 

One final point if GM has decided he does not want to play them then simply why were they not sold in January - presumably the excuse is no one wants them they are too expensive blahdy blahdy blah - good manager managing their team and their resources as someone above mentioned if Big Ron had a player he didn't want he would sell him not send him to train at home.

 

 

[cowl]

2 minutes ago, Owls-Fan said:

This is now the time when Monk can be assessed in my opinion, since Fletcher has been missing from the starting lineup for the past 8 games we’ve only won twice, but he only had some weaker strikers to pick in his place 
 

He’s now brought in 3-4 attacking players to fill the void of Fletcher’s absence and so there shouldn’t really be any excuses for us not to return to the winning ways we had before Christmas.  Dropping players like Hutch and Westwood is bold and Monk will need his squad to deliver on the pitch to make these decisions seem like good moves 

 

Agreed. The next 6 fixtures are against teams from which we've already taken 14 from 18 points. They're teams beneath us in the league, and though there are no easy games at this level, some are certainly easier than others.

 

Westwood was a big call at the time, but I think Dawson's reintroduction went pretty well to be fair, certainly points-wise we saw an improvement.

 

This is the difference between the cases of Westwood and Hutchinson though; the most obvious replacement for Hutchinson is Pelupessy, and his performances will have to improve a lot for Hutchinson not to be missed. Luongo can't keep himself fit for long enough either, Lee's star is fading (sadly) and Hunt's really not ready yet.

 

In the summer, with the contracts of Hutchinson, Pelupessy, and Lee expiring, Monk will have the chance to do proper surgery on central midfield, but for now we've still got 16 league games to go this season, and I still think Hutchinson will prove to be a big miss.

[cowl]

17 minutes ago, room0035 said:

We hear this term team player, bad apple etc but in reality the so called big earners at the club are the ones who when they are in the team, the team seem to perform better.

 

Yes Westwood did make a few mistakes this season, when a striker makes a mistake he misses a goal, when a keeper does he costs us a goal, but the issue I have with this is all players made mistakes but we don't banish them from the team. This for me is poor management of the players, some players are arms round the shoulder types, some need a kick up the backside.

 

You then look at the players not playing in Hutch and Westwood the leader on the pitch and not surprisingly the form of the team has dipped with them not in the team.

 

I think the cases of Hutchinson and Westwood are quite different to each other though.

 

Westwood was dropped because of his form, and in fact, after being dropped we took 14 points from 18 and went from 10th to 3rd, and if we're going to look for a single factor as to why results turned after this then the most likely candidate would be Fletcher's injury.

 

Hutchinson wouldn't appear to have been dropped due to form at all though. In fact, he was probably one of the very few players who could walk off the pitch against Blackburn with any credit whatsoever (and even then his passing was pretty poor). He was also playing well against QPR before he was injured and had to go off.

[the monk]

38 minutes ago, room0035 said:

We hear this term team player, bad apple etc but in reality the so called big earners at the club are the ones who when they are in the team, the team seem to perform better.

 

Yes Westwood did make a few mistakes this season, when a striker makes a mistake he misses a goal, when a keeper does he costs us a goal, but the issue I have with this is all players made mistakes but we don't banish them from the team. This for me is poor management of the players, some players are arms round the shoulder types, some need a kick up the backside.

 

You then look at the players not playing in Hutch and Westwood the leader on the pitch and not surprisingly the form of the team has dipped with them not in the team.

 

One final point if GM has decided he does not want to play them then simply why were they not sold in January - presumably the excuse is no one wants them they are too expensive blahdy blahdy blah - good manager managing their team and their resources as someone above mentioned if Big Ron had a player he didn't want he would sell him not send him to train at home.

 

 

You do know someone has to want to buy players , you cant sell to nobody

Cant see why anyone has to have an excuse for not been able to shift overpaid , over rated 5 hite

[matthefish2002]

45 minutes ago, room0035 said:

We hear this term team player, bad apple etc but in reality the so called big earners at the club are the ones who when they are in the team, the team seem to perform better.

 

Yes Westwood did make a few mistakes this season, when a striker makes a mistake he misses a goal, when a keeper does he costs us a goal, but the issue I have with this is all players made mistakes but we don't banish them from the team. This for me is poor management of the players, some players are arms round the shoulder types, some need a kick up the backside.

 

You then look at the players not playing in Hutch and Westwood the leader on the pitch and not surprisingly the form of the team has dipped with them not in the team.

 

One final point if GM has decided he does not want to play them then simply why were they not sold in January - presumably the excuse is no one wants them they are too expensive blahdy blahdy blah - good manager managing their team and their resources as someone above mentioned if Big Ron had a player he didn't want he would sell him not send him to train at home.

 

 

 

Big Ron was a good man manager but that was 30 years ago now but players have a lot more power then they did then.
I doubt very much some of Ron Atkinson methods would have worked today.

[bigdan2003]

 

3 minutes ago, room0035 said:

We hear this term team player, bad apple etc but in reality the so called big earners at the club are the ones who when they are in the team, the team seem to perform better.

 

Yes Westwood did make a few mistakes this season, when a striker makes a mistake he misses a goal, when a keeper does he costs us a goal, but the issue I have with this is all players made mistakes but we don't banish them from the team. This for me is poor management of the players, some players are arms round the shoulder types, some need a kick up the backside.

 

You then look at the players not playing in Hutch and Westwood the leader on the pitch and not surprisingly the form of the team has dipped with them not in the team.

 

One final point if GM has decided he does not want to play them then simply why were they not sold in January - presumably the excuse is no one wants them they are too expensive blahdy blahdy blah - good manager managing their team and their resources as someone above mentioned if Big Ron had a player he didn't want he would sell him not send him to train at home.

 

 

 

Our form dipped whilst they were playing. Lets stop this nonsense that these players are core to how we play, and some how carry us.....they don't. We've been sh*t with them in the team as well. The same issues have occured for the last 4 years with these guys in the team. Not picking on them specifically, because there's a few others who've been involved as well. 

 

The fact Monk has seemingly dropped the same players who Jos did should not be lost on people - it should pretty much give the impression that perhaps the players are the issue here. 

Yes, criticise Monk for whatever you think he's done wrong...tactics, team selections etc. But these players have been the constant for the last 4 years, and have consistently under performed and been weak - i'll be glad when we get shut of many in the summer and allow Monk to build his own team. 

 

I'm fairly certain that, given the chance, Monk would have sold the players you've mentioned. Having them hang around is bad for all parties concerned.  But it's not as simple as that is it? It was probably easier for Big Ron to get shut of players 20 - 30 years ago. 

 

[room0035]

3 minutes ago, matthefish2002 said:

 

Big Ron was a good man manager but that was 30 years ago now but players have a lot more power then they did then.
I doubt very much some of Ron Atkinson methods would have worked today.

I know what you are saying but for me its an excuse, every other team in our division has the ability to move on players they don't want we either don't want to, or think its just easier to wait until they are out of contract.

 

We keep getting told it is because of the wages they are on then here stories where offers came in for players but it didn't match what we wanted for them. if we don't want them and need the off the wage bill any offer is better than no offer. 

 

We have wasted millions each season with players sat in the stands not wanted. We simple cannot keep doing this. look at the list over the last 3 years of players that have not been in the team who we let leave on frees, this is no way to manage a football team.

[room0035]

2 minutes ago, bigdan2003 said:

 

 

Our form dipped whilst they were playing. Lets stop this nonsense that these players are core to how we play, and some how carry us.....they don't. We've been sh*t with them in the team as well. The same issues have occured for the last 4 years with these guys in the team. Not picking on them specifically, because there's a few others who've been involved as well. 

 

The fact Monk has seemingly dropped the same players who Jos did should not be lost on people - it should pretty much give the impression that perhaps the players are the issue here. 

Yes, criticise Monk for whatever you think he's done wrong...tactics, team selections etc. But these players have been the constant for the last 4 years, and have consistently under performed and been weak - i'll be glad when we get shut of many in the summer and allow Monk to build his own team. 

 

I'm fairly certain that, given the chance, Monk would have sold the players you've mentioned. Having them hang around is bad for all parties concerned.  But it's not as simple as that is it? It was probably easier for Big Ron to get shut of players 20 - 30 years ago. 

 

 

I just think the likes of Westwood, Hutch as co are easy targets. Bruce came in last season and these two were the core of the team both are proper professionals and when you hear them talk about the team they love the place. 

 

Westwood has 18 months left on his deal does that mean he will be sat in the stands for the next 18 months or does someone at the club find someone to take him?

[Steve Down South]

If we are pinning our hopes on either of these two then we are well and truly screwed.

 

I’ve no idea what the truth is about their attitude behind the scenes, but I’ve certainly no problem seeing Westwood left out based on recent form.  I think it was a poor decision to offer him a 2 year deal and hope we can find a buyer for him in the summer.

 

Hutchinson’s form has been a little better, but I still regard him as a centre half and feel we have always needed better in midfield.  It’s a bit of an indictment of our transfer ‘policy’ that we don’t really have an adequate replacement in a key position.

[Andrew6666]

The manager should be backed in his decision making. The manager will then be judged on results. Player power is a scurge.

 

The 'possible' problem we have is that Monk 'possibly' wants rid of the trouble makers, but the chairmen wants a ridiculous fee and wont release them.

[marcx666]

21 minutes ago, Andrew6666 said:

The manager should be backed in his decision making. The manager will then be judged on results. Player power is a scurge.

 

The 'possible' problem we have is that Monk 'possibly' wants rid of the trouble makers, but the chairmen possibly wants a ridiculous fee and possibly wont release them.

Fixed it for you.

[Blatter]

4 hours ago, handworth52 said:

I don't know whats going off or gone off, we all have ideas etc , but we are in a relegation fight lets not kid ourselves ,we need to be looking at 68-70 points either to make playoffs or be 21 points above 3rd bottom if efl hit us with maximum what they can . id sooner have hutch and westwood available we cant continue to leak goals . the midfield seriously worries me we have murphy and harris on wings doing nothing almost a total waste of time (harris form has plummeted) then we have the weakest 2 in centre mid in championship in bannan and pelupessy  , llongo is continually injured ,lee is past it , and now he wont touch Hutchinson leaving us with only u23 jack hunt who is 8 stone wet through as available.  I want to be able to judge monk with his own players which hopefully he will get in the  summer but somethings not right at the club. I hope monk aint been too stubborn as with all these games coming up we seriously might need westwood and hutch . what happens if dawson gets injured? what then? put mr kamikaze in net? anyone who has seen any u23 game or highlights knows what im on about.

Have you never heard of a player called Windass.

BTW Luongo is fit and training. Last minute decision about whether he starts tomorrow.

Cheer up it’s not as bad as you’re making out.