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EFL- Sheff Wednesday - Derby

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13 minutes ago, Bukta said:

Sorry let me word that differently. It’s already an unavoidable future cost.

It’s not unavoidable for the owner of a  liability company. No owner of any business would guarantee let alone deposit funds in an escrow account to cover the full potential cost of future salaries to be paid to the employees of the company he owns. 

Edited by kobayashi

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1 hour ago, OWLERTON GHOST said:

Top 6 Euro league 

Bigger Premier 

Like a football Lager n lime .....

 

 


Agree and then the PL will want and need clubs like us and Derby.

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55 minutes ago, Bukta said:

Money for player contracts goes into escrow. It’s that easy.


And limit the loans an owner can make to his club ie make it share capital and then it cannot easily be withdrawn or recalled. Chelsea owe Abramovich something close to £1.5 billion - imagine if he fell out with them.

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55 minutes ago, McRightSide said:

Obviously we don’t know the intricacies but if events have happened based upon written consent, then you could easily argue it was done in good faith

 

Therefore I can only see three possible permutations where clubs could get into hot water:

 

1. providing incorrect or misleading evidence  / documentation leading to the approval

 

2. executing upon something different to which consent was given

 

3. failure to provide written evidence of consent


I’m still a little concerned we could be guilty of all three of these.

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Derby now being dragged over the coals as well.as ourselves for committing an 'offence' deemed acceptable previously.

 

Presumably Villa (who are now untouchable unless they're relegated) potentially in the same boat. 

 

Clubs routinely finding loopholes to exploit to spend their own money to try and compete with clubs allowed to spend money freely effectively gifted to them by TV conpanies.

 

Bitter club chairman pointing the finger and demanding action against fellow members having fallen off the gravy chain and failed to clamber back on.

 

Clubs failing to fulfill fixtures or turning out youth teams to fulfill them.

 

Points deductions right, left and centre. 

 

The EFL is a busted flush. EPL2 is coming and it will be the death of 20+ full time.clubs within 20 years.

 

Football in this country will.be unrecognisable within 2 decades because its the only way the EPL and all it's billions is sustainable. 

 

We need to make sure we're at the forefront of the sea change that's coming for clubs 21-72.

Edited by RUMBELOWS91
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1 minute ago, Wakefield owl said:


I’m still a little concerned we could be guilty of all three of these.

 

Must say it seems very strange, if what we and derby have said is true and water tight, why would the efl carry on. Going through the motions, then pulling out at the last poss minute....or are they holding something back?

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26 minutes ago, striker said:

If, and it's a big if considering nothing in the public domain (although more realistic, the more clubs cite evidence) there is written agreement in evidence, the more this looks like a vanity exercise by the EFL to appease the likes of Gibson.

 

The EFL are following a process, but cannot realistically expect to win against compelling evidence in a proper court of law, as opposed to their own kangaroo court, where they interpret the rules as they go along.

 

The lawyers for two clubs have reviewed the evidence and decided not just to defend, but categorically argue that the charges themselves are unlawful, before they even get to the point of discussing the charges. This is a bold tactic, unprecedented and  a decision that wouldn't have be taken lightly without strong evidence in their favour.


Initially I was pleased to read the Derby statement and thought we must be on solid ground. However on reflection I’m concerned.
 

I know we all (with justification) think the EFL are pretty incompetent but they have now charged two clubs on a similar basis. I don’t believe they would have done this without advice and guidance from their lawyers - and no doubt these will be highly paid and qualified lawyers who know much more than we do about all the facts. This leads me to think they must be confident the charges will stick as they will be well aware of the dire consequences for the EFL if they fail to make them stick.

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34 minutes ago, striker said:

If, and it's a big if considering nothing in the public domain (although more realistic, the more clubs cite evidence) there is written agreement in evidence, the more this looks like a vanity exercise by the EFL to appease the likes of Gibson.

 

The EFL are following a process, but cannot realistically expect to win against compelling evidence in a proper court of law, as opposed to their own kangaroo court, where they interpret the rules as they go along.

 

The lawyers for two clubs have reviewed the evidence and decided not just to defend, but categorically argue that the charges themselves are unlawful, before they even get to the point of discussing the charges. This is a bold tactic, unprecedented and  a decision that wouldn't have be taken lightly without strong evidence in their favour.

That’s pretty much how I see it, Gibson seems to have more influence than he should and if the EFL continues to pursue clubs in this manner it will lead to a breakaway league if the PL and sky are on board and will in effect kill the EFL. Ironically Gibson would probably be a prime mover in any breakaway 

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30 minutes ago, kobayashi said:

It’s not unavoidable for the owner of a  liability company. No owner of any business would guarantee let alone deposit funds in an escrow account to cover the full potential cost of future salaries to be paid to the employees of the company he owns. 

Let’s be right here we are not talking about any normal business are we? I am certain that if this was the only way to pump “loss” into your football club then most would do it. If you won’t do it surely it proves you are not in a financial position to do so which brings us back to why you have to do this in the first place!

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So if the efl had any brains,why would ya not send someone out to evaluate what the grounds are worth instead of letting us and dcfc do it? Obviously this is where they fecked up

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2 hours ago, kobayashi said:

Not one owner of an EFL club would be prepared to put tens of millions into an escrow account to cover the value of player contracts. 

it's nothing more than a guarantee, a bond of good faith. 1) Owners would in fact be paying double 2) But this would drive down the price and wages of players. 3) A player costing £6m in fee and £6m in wages over 3 Years. The chair would pay 6 in transfer fees and deposit  bond fee of 6 + wages bond of 6. As the contract depreciated in both time and wages the Chair could draw down at intervals the equivalent of  £4m per annum.

 

Should a chairman depart mid term outstanding bonds could be negotiated as a saleable asset.  

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4 hours ago, RUMBELOWS91 said:

Derby now being dragged over the coals as well.as ourselves for committing an 'offence' deemed acceptable previously.

 

Presumably Villa (who are now untouchable unless they're relegated) potentially in the same boat. 

 

Clubs routinely finding loopholes to exploit to spend their own money to try and compete with clubs allowed to spend money freely effectively gifted to them by TV conpanies.

 

Bitter club chairman pointing the finger and demanding action against fellow members having fallen off the gravy chain and failed to clamber back on.

 

Clubs failing to fulfill fixtures or turning out youth teams to fulfill them.

 

Points deductions right, left and centre. 

 

The EFL is a busted flush. EPL2 is coming and it will be the death of 20+ full time.clubs within 20 years.

 

Football in this country will.be unrecognisable within 2 decades because its the only way the EPL and all it's billions is sustainable. 

 

We need to make sure we're at the forefront of the sea change that's coming for clubs 21-72.

Premier League 2 has been coming in all but name for a few years.

 

Wednesday and simalar sized clubs will be involved.

 

I feel sorry for the smaller clubs but that's  just how it is.

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7 hours ago, Sergeant Tibbs said:

Looking at the EFL brand and values, they mention ‘Credibility’ - it seems that has currently gone out of the window.

Based on their handling of current cases , I expected their ‘mission statement’ to contain the word ‘transparency’ - no sign of it.

By the way these two cases are unfolding, it seems and they are taking on too much at the moment. 

Even if we are guilty as charged, there’s a chance that we could get a repreive due to EFL incompetence. They don’t come across as being in a position to afford the legal experts that this will need. 

Or, we are dead in the water and the club statements and repeated non statements are a load of bunkum. 

 

Fence sitting at its finest!

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7 hours ago, sherlyegg said:

 

Must say it seems very strange, if what we and derby have said is true and water tight, why would the efl carry on. Going through the motions, then pulling out at the last poss minute....or are they holding something back?

 

C42042A8-E166-4E6E-8E78-0BD2D7CE0CFF.jpeg

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7 hours ago, jamiejohn said:

That’s pretty much how I see it, Gibson seems to have more influence than he should and if the EFL continues to pursue clubs in this manner it will lead to a breakaway league if the PL and sky are on board and will in effect kill the EFL. Ironically Gibson would probably be a prime mover in any breakaway 

 

Gibson is an idiot, clubs like Wednesday and Derby are just trying to keep compete with Boro and other clubs recently relegated from Premier League who receive millions in parachute payments. 

 

They've got a massive financial advantage over us and Gibson the tvvat still isn't happy. 

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EFL should scrap all FFP rules and let clubs spend what they want. 

 

Clubs will then go bust, communities will lose their football clubs and people will get exactly what they didn’t want. And probably blame the EFL. 

 

People need to take a step back. The EFL are ‘allowing’ losses at a football club of over £39m and crackpots are still trying to circumnavigate it. Furthermore, people are considering a 10 year season ticket to support such activity. 

 

The whole thing is crackers and fully deserves to go bust. 

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1 minute ago, vulva said:

EFL should scrap all FFP rules and let clubs spend what they want. 

 

Clubs will then go bust, communities will lose their football clubs and people will get exactly what they didn’t want. And probably blame the EFL. 

 

People need to take a step back. The EFL are ‘allowing’ losses at a football club of over £39m and crackpots are still trying to circumnavigate it. Furthermore, people are considering a 10 year season ticket to support such activity. 

 

The whole thing is crackers and fully deserves to go bust. 

I wonder, if this discussion was being had 10 years ago when we didn’t have a pot to urinate in, how many of our fans would think they way they do now about P&S

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5 hours ago, nevthelodgemoorowl said:

it's nothing more than a guarantee, a bond of good faith. 1) Owners would in fact be paying double 2) But this would drive down the price and wages of players. 3) A player costing £6m in fee and £6m in wages over 3 Years. The chair would pay 6 in transfer fees and deposit  bond fee of 6 + wages bond of 6. As the contract depreciated in both time and wages the Chair could draw down at intervals the equivalent of  £4m per annum.

 

Should a chairman depart mid term outstanding bonds could be negotiated as a saleable asset.  

A Financial guarantee is not bond of good faith it’s a legal agreement that has to be issued by an organisation that you know will be their and have the funds to make good on the guarantee such as a bank or insurance company. My company has just agreed to buy a new machine. We were required to pay a €m deposit for which required from the machine manufacturer a bank backed guarantee which would require the bank to refund the deposit to us if the manufacturer fails to deliver the machine in the autumn. The guarantee will be marked against their facility and they will pay a fee based on the guaranteed amount, the duration of the guarantee and  the banks assessment of their credit worthiness. For a football club, setting  aside the unlikelihood  that any financial institution would undertake to issue such a guarantee the fee and potential contract costs of a footballer the amount of facility, the duration and high risk then level of fees required would be astronomical £m per year. There is a reason why such a system does not exist and that is because it is commercially impossible.

As for escrow, owners of football clubs operate them as limited liability companies for a reason. To limit their liability. A business owner of a football club or any other company could never and would never take such a step. If you think that the owners of the EFL Clubs are going to agree on a system that individually would require them to deposit  tens of millions in escrow and collectively £billion then you are wrong. Few of them could, none of them would.

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17 minutes ago, vulva said:

EFL should scrap all FFP rules and let clubs spend what they want. 

 

Clubs will then go bust, communities will lose their football clubs and people will get exactly what they didn’t want. And probably blame the EFL. 

 

People need to take a step back. The EFL are ‘allowing’ losses at a football club of over £39m and crackpots are still trying to circumnavigate it. Furthermore, people are considering a 10 year season ticket to support such activity. 

 

The whole thing is crackers and fully deserves to go bust. 

Some fair points there and totally get why the rules are needed, but what if an individual or group is wealthy enough to subsidise the cost of a promotion push ?

Willing to put their own money on the line without risking the existence of the club ?

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