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EFL- Sheff Wednesday - Derby


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7 hours ago, jamiejohn said:

That’s pretty much how I see it, Gibson seems to have more influence than he should and if the EFL continues to pursue clubs in this manner it will lead to a breakaway league if the PL and sky are on board and will in effect kill the EFL. Ironically Gibson would probably be a prime mover in any breakaway 

 

Gibson is an idiot, clubs like Wednesday and Derby are just trying to keep compete with Boro and other clubs recently relegated from Premier League who receive millions in parachute payments. 

 

They've got a massive financial advantage over us and Gibson the tvvat still isn't happy. 

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EFL should scrap all FFP rules and let clubs spend what they want. 

 

Clubs will then go bust, communities will lose their football clubs and people will get exactly what they didn’t want. And probably blame the EFL. 

 

People need to take a step back. The EFL are ‘allowing’ losses at a football club of over £39m and crackpots are still trying to circumnavigate it. Furthermore, people are considering a 10 year season ticket to support such activity. 

 

The whole thing is crackers and fully deserves to go bust. 

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1 minute ago, vulva said:

EFL should scrap all FFP rules and let clubs spend what they want. 

 

Clubs will then go bust, communities will lose their football clubs and people will get exactly what they didn’t want. And probably blame the EFL. 

 

People need to take a step back. The EFL are ‘allowing’ losses at a football club of over £39m and crackpots are still trying to circumnavigate it. Furthermore, people are considering a 10 year season ticket to support such activity. 

 

The whole thing is crackers and fully deserves to go bust. 

I wonder, if this discussion was being had 10 years ago when we didn’t have a pot to urinate in, how many of our fans would think they way they do now about P&S

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5 hours ago, nevthelodgemoorowl said:

it's nothing more than a guarantee, a bond of good faith. 1) Owners would in fact be paying double 2) But this would drive down the price and wages of players. 3) A player costing £6m in fee and £6m in wages over 3 Years. The chair would pay 6 in transfer fees and deposit  bond fee of 6 + wages bond of 6. As the contract depreciated in both time and wages the Chair could draw down at intervals the equivalent of  £4m per annum.

 

Should a chairman depart mid term outstanding bonds could be negotiated as a saleable asset.  

A Financial guarantee is not bond of good faith it’s a legal agreement that has to be issued by an organisation that you know will be their and have the funds to make good on the guarantee such as a bank or insurance company. My company has just agreed to buy a new machine. We were required to pay a €m deposit for which required from the machine manufacturer a bank backed guarantee which would require the bank to refund the deposit to us if the manufacturer fails to deliver the machine in the autumn. The guarantee will be marked against their facility and they will pay a fee based on the guaranteed amount, the duration of the guarantee and  the banks assessment of their credit worthiness. For a football club, setting  aside the unlikelihood  that any financial institution would undertake to issue such a guarantee the fee and potential contract costs of a footballer the amount of facility, the duration and high risk then level of fees required would be astronomical £m per year. There is a reason why such a system does not exist and that is because it is commercially impossible.

As for escrow, owners of football clubs operate them as limited liability companies for a reason. To limit their liability. A business owner of a football club or any other company could never and would never take such a step. If you think that the owners of the EFL Clubs are going to agree on a system that individually would require them to deposit  tens of millions in escrow and collectively £billion then you are wrong. Few of them could, none of them would.

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17 minutes ago, vulva said:

EFL should scrap all FFP rules and let clubs spend what they want. 

 

Clubs will then go bust, communities will lose their football clubs and people will get exactly what they didn’t want. And probably blame the EFL. 

 

People need to take a step back. The EFL are ‘allowing’ losses at a football club of over £39m and crackpots are still trying to circumnavigate it. Furthermore, people are considering a 10 year season ticket to support such activity. 

 

The whole thing is crackers and fully deserves to go bust. 

Some fair points there and totally get why the rules are needed, but what if an individual or group is wealthy enough to subsidise the cost of a promotion push ?

Willing to put their own money on the line without risking the existence of the club ?

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Just now, Rhubarb n Custard said:

Some fair points there and totally get why the rules are needed, but what if an individual or group is wealthy enough to subsidise the cost of a promotion push ?

Willing to put their own money on the line without risking the existence of the club ?

It then creates a totally unfair game. The FFP rules are all about fairness, and financial stability. I personally don’t see an issue with that. 

 

At times fans get lost in the fog of all this. We’ve got owners in the game selling football grounds to themselves for millions more than they are worth to pay the wages of mercenary footballers who just repatriate that cash to their own country. And for what? To get into a league where you pay 3 x more in wages?

 

Id love it if there was another ITV digital scenario and the game was reset. 

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Derby’s statement is more damning to EFL that ours. Basically saying that EFL came back, after approving the ground sale, they made an error and need to punish them. Shows their true incompetence, selling grounds is dodgy way of making sure you meet the criteria of profit for the rules. However, EFL have shot themselves in the foot by letting clubs to do this sale. To turn around and say “sorry pal, you can’t do that” is too late in the day.

 

I think the teams involved (us included) will get away with points deduction and get severe fines, potentially embargo. EFL need to make it clear moving forward and stop being amateurish.  

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12 minutes ago, vulva said:

It then creates a totally unfair game. The FFP rules are all about fairness, and financial stability. I personally don’t see an issue with that. 

 

At times fans get lost in the fog of all this. We’ve got owners in the game selling football grounds to themselves for millions more than they are worth to pay the wages of mercenary footballers who just repatriate that cash to their own country. And for what? To get into a league where you pay 3 x more in wages?

 

Id love it if there was another ITV digital scenario and the game was reset. 

There's no doubt money has ruined the game.

The biggest issue is that wealth is so unevenly distributed.

For me there should be a levy charged to all Prem teams that filters down for the benefit of all clubs in lower divisions and the game in general. Never gonna happen. Greed plain and simple.

Players at the top of the food chain going for £200m, really ?

This has massively inflated the cost of average players in all leagues.

Someone metioned £6m for Gary Madine the other week, I nearly choked on my imaginary 150 year anniversary watch.

 

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28 minutes ago, SwellOwl said:

Derby’s statement is more damning to EFL that ours. Basically saying that EFL came back, after approving the ground sale, they made an error and need to punish them. Shows their true incompetence, selling grounds is dodgy way of making sure you meet the criteria of profit for the rules. However, EFL have shot themselves in the foot by letting clubs to do this sale. To turn around and say “sorry pal, you can’t do that” is too late in the day.

 

I think the teams involved (us included) will get away with points deduction and get severe fines, potentially embargo. EFL need to make it clear moving forward and stop being amateurish.  

If it is the EFL doing a U turn and the ground sales were done under their guidance under current rules then I don't see how they can implement any punishment, but change the rules so it can't be done in the future. 

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9 hours ago, Wakefield owl said:


Initially I was pleased to read the Derby statement and thought we must be on solid ground. However on reflection I’m concerned.
 

I know we all (with justification) think the EFL are pretty incompetent but they have now charged two clubs on a similar basis. I don’t believe they would have done this without advice and guidance from their lawyers - and no doubt these will be highly paid and qualified lawyers who know much more than we do about all the facts. This leads me to think they must be confident the charges will stick as they will be well aware of the dire consequences for the EFL if they fail to make them stick.

But likewise, ourselves and Derby wouldn't have done what we did without advice and guidance from our own lawyers and accountants. We also both consulted the EFL and gained approval before we acted. The only way I can see either of us being guilty is if new evidence has come to light that the EFL weren't aware of, which is what they are implying in our case. It may come down to who has the best lawyers. 

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What we need to do is contact the PL bigwigs and see where they stand on a formation on a PL2

 

If they are open to this then we should canvas other similar clubs to ourselves and see if they would be willing to join such a league

 

we then go to the EFL with a list of potential clubs willing to resign their status as an EFL club and form a breakaway PL2

 

With the threat of mass resignation and the risk of losing a whole lot of revenue the EFL might see the error of their ways

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45 minutes ago, Rhubarb n Custard said:

There's no doubt money has ruined the game.

The biggest issue is that wealth is so unevenly distributed.

For me there should be a levy charged to all Prem teams that filters down for the benefit of all clubs in lower divisions and the game in general. Never gonna happen. Greed plain and simple.

Players at the top of the food chain going for £200m, really ?

This has massively inflated the cost of average players in all leagues.

Someone metioned £6m for Gary Madine the other week, I nearly choked on my imaginary 150 year anniversary watch.

 

But football has always been unfair, there is a reason that historically the biggest and most successful clubs have always been centred in big cities where local businessman have put their wealth in to the club.never been even, so why can't DC or anyone else spend what they want.

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Some excellent posts on this thread.

 

The P&S rules are quite simply not fit for purpose. The Parliamentary Committee letter more or less spells out it is not doing what was intended.

 

Trying to get a level playing field is impossible. The issue is exacerbated when some teams are in receipt of parachute payments and they are ignored. Each club is different they all have different levels of support and therefore different finances. Wealthy owners have enabled some clubs Bournemouth for example to achieve a far higher status than would otherwise be the situation. If they drop out of Premier League they will be similar to Swansea having to make massive reductions to adjust to P&S requirements or gambling on going straight back up.

 

P&S was supposed to stop clubs spending money which they did not have and going into receivership. It has in fact clamped down on extremely wealthy owners investing in clubs and failed to get to terms with those who buy clubs the can not afford to run. There are some excellent suggestions on here which would mean wealthy owners who put money into clubs could not just walk away and leave them up the creek. It is not difficult to produce a set of rules which could be implemented with ease instead of ones which rely on dark arts to be implemented.

 

When Wednesday said it was unlawful actions by EFL this was quite a step but with Derby now saying same thing it is beginning to look grim for EFL. In EFL response to Wednesday they did not say they had not approved Wednesdays actions they quibbled about finding other errors and misdemeanours. Much has been said about points deductions but I am not certain what we have been charged with would actually carry a points deduction, if found guilty it would probably be a fine. The whole purpose of this guidance is about having clubs in a sustainable state and guiding a club back to profitability. It is clear that few clubs would be profitable without benefactors pumping money into clubs so preventing owners from injecting capital into a club is hardly a way of achieving aim.

 

The EFL committee is interesting in composition and you have to assume must be some conflict. Bazalgette who is on committee I think is the same guy who ran British Horse Authority and was extremely unpopular and eventually removed. Parry was the wrong choice as he will no doubt try and uphold status of Premier League. 

 

You can not see how current rules will survive and the EFL itself must be in jeopardy.

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13 hours ago, Rhubarb n Custard said:

Looks to me like the EFL have backed themselves into a corner with us and Derby, especially if reports that both clubs have written consent are true.

If so, I don't see how they can come out of this with any credibility. Their options are limited.

 

1. Back down and their reputation and authority will be seriously compromised.

2. Try to bully a concession and end up losing in court, thus confirming their incompetence and rendering themselves toothless.

 

Its the utter contempt and arrogance the way they conduct their business that rankles the most.

Sincerely hope that PL2 is the outcome and that the EFL will be remembered as nothing more than irrelevant bully boys.

Well said mate.

 

Absolutely spot on.

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9 minutes ago, 2roland2 said:


name one owner in the entire English pyramid who has so far put that guarantee in place?
 

if our owner does it then spend away, he won’t obv because he’s the same as every other owner.

I don't know of guarantees but there are plenty that have bankrolled top teams. 

And that's what I'm suggesting. 

Owners are the ones who stand to gain financially.

So, if they want to actively chase this golden goose with our club, it should be without compromising the club's existence or finances. 

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