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35 minutes ago, jp1981 said:

In which case............Spend, spend, spend.:Chansiri::image:

Last thing other PL clubs want is a newbie with 100m to spend not doing so. How else will they offload their unwanted players.

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42 minutes ago, HarrowbyOwl said:

Looks like embongoes are ruled out. Rule 6 deals with registration embargoes and Rule 8.1 states:

 

8.1 If a Championship Club is promoted to the Premier League (a Promoted Championship Club) the Promoted Championship Club shall, notwithstanding promotion, remain bound by these Rules following promotion as if it were still a Championship Club, until such time as it has complied with all of its obligations in respect of the Reporting Period covering its last Season as a Championship Club.  Until such time as the Promoted Championship Club has so complied, each of these Rules shall be deemed to apply to that Promoted Championship Club (other than Rule 6).

I've just scanned through the rules on the EFL website (I know, I know). The above rule is for up to 15/16 season only, after that it's the new set of rules which doesn't have the exclusion of rule 6 re embargoes in it as far as I can see so I think it's open ended in terms of what sactions the EFL can apply. Theres nothing in there about application of those sanctions on a promoted club though. They have no power over anything the EPL do so they'd be entirely in their hands in that event. Whether or not the EPL would carry out any sactions (fine, embargo or deduction) handed down by the EFL would be entirely up to them and if be very surprised if they would allow promoted teams to start the season with a points deduction. I'd imagine it would be a significant fine or embargo if anything. 

 

The last thing the EPL would want to do is reduce the competitiveness of their competition.

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Isn't January the cut off for Teams giving the EFL their projected profit loss for the year to apply with P&S rules.

 

I seem to think a point deduction if that happens can happen at anytime in the season.

 

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15 minutes ago, Ante's Bubbly said:

Has anybody wondered at all about the timing of DC's shuffling at shareholder level? 

 

Didn't West Ham and Tottenham avoid points deductions by changing ownership? If we took the EFL to court regarding the conflicts between business law and the EFL's ridiculous rules and how they choose to interpret them from one team to another, then we could have a case that goes on for so long that our ownership may "change" before a points deduction can be inflicted. 

The rules apply to the club. A change of ownership won't change anything.

 

If DC is banned from being an owner that will apply to him but I doubt they would do that without sanctioning the club in some way at the same time.

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13 hours ago, HarrowbyOwl said:

Not sure about that but we’ve got the arbitration case to get through, then if that goes against us the disciplinary commission hearings, then if that goes against us a possible appeal. Hard pressed to get through all that before the end of the season.

 

That's the whole point of this song and dance and falls perfectly in line with DC's ethos of ShitOrBust.

 

We need to get promoted this season or we'll be totally fecked next season!... again!

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25 minutes ago, Ante's Bubbly said:

Has anybody wondered at all about the timing of DC's shuffling at shareholder level? 

 

Didn't West Ham and Tottenham avoid points deductions by changing ownership? If we took the EFL to court regarding the conflicts between business law and the EFL's ridiculous rules and how they choose to interpret them from one team to another, then we could have a case that goes on for so long that our ownership may "change" before a points deduction can be inflicted. 

But when West ham and Spurs changed owners it was actual a different owner not the same person using another company that he/she owned. :duntmatter:

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56 minutes ago, Dunkstar said:

I've just scanned through the rules on the EFL website (I know, I know). The above rule is for up to 15/16 season only, after that it's the new set of rules which doesn't have the exclusion of rule 6 re embargoes in it as far as I can see so I think it's open ended in terms of what sactions the EFL can apply. Theres nothing in there about application of those sanctions on a promoted club though. They have no power over anything the EPL do so they'd be entirely in their hands in that event. Whether or not the EPL would carry out any sactions (fine, embargo or deduction) handed down by the EFL would be entirely up to them and if be very surprised if they would allow promoted teams to start the season with a points deduction. I'd imagine it would be a significant fine or embargo if anything. 

 

The last thing the EPL would want to do is reduce the competitiveness of their competition.

Yep, you're right, 8.1 FFP replaced by 5.1 P&S

 

5.1 If a Club is promoted or relegated out of the Championship Division that Club shall, notwithstanding promotion or relegation, remain bound by these as if it were still a Championship Club, until such time as it has complied with all of its obligations relating to its last Season as a Championship Club.

 

Really not sure what happens in regard to promoted teams carrying forward points deductions into the Prem.

As far as I can see the Premier League rules only allow points deductions in cases of insolvency but not FFP breaches. They are looking at it though:

https://www.90min.com/posts/6521970-premier-league-consider-introducing-points-deduction-as-punishment-for-ffp-breaches

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6 minutes ago, prowl said:

The rules apply to the club. A change of ownership won't change anything.

 

If DC is banned from being an owner that will apply to him but I doubt they would do that without sanctioning the club in some way at the same time.

 

But who at the club, other than Chansiri would be responsible? Did another DC owned company not buy the ground?

 

I really do wonder if the EFL are just looking around desperately now for a way out of the mess that they have got themselves into. If they thought that they could get away with fining us now and walk away, then I reckon they would, but DC and his lawyers gave them that opportunity and they did not take it, so time to take them for every point and penny that we can. Unfortunately the professional referee pool seem to be docking us points under the radar, so we may still struggle this season. Maybe if we promise to be good in the future the EFL might consider giving us some of these points back before the end of the season, an extra 12 points in a week or two's time would be most welcome.

 

Also, regarding business accounts can't losses and profits be spread out over several years, forwards and backwards and claimed for retrospectively? After all, what is a profit other than a negative loss? If so, our "business accounts" can reflect the profits from the sale whenever we want them to, as long as the things claimed for are real/have been real/will be real and the thing we are claiming for is allowed within the rules of the EFL? 

 

As far as I have seen, the buying or selling of a club's ground is perfectly legitimate and has been happening on and off for a number of years, not just in the present money juggling times. The price of the ground is debatable, but inevitably a half decent lawyer can argue that the value of anything depends on how much the buyer is willing to pay and how much the seller is willing to accept and the valuation of our ground is therefore not over the market value. The rules that the EFL have put in place regarding financial fair play are governed by the business laws which preside over company accounts. Which must be presented to the EFL annually, or 12 monthly and if required with any additional accounts "in the same manner and with the same degree of verified detail as if the Championship Club was obliged to lodge those additional accounts at Companies House". So in that case, our accounts, along with the additional accounts (which contained our sale of the ground profits), would have to be acceptable by companies house (for tax purposes etc) in order to be acceptable to the EFL. There is no special EFL ruling saying that a ground sale cannot be admitted in another year's business accounts, therefore the rules of the land governing business accounts must preside, which as far as I can gather, puts us in the clear. But that is my layman's understanding of it and I reckon a good lawyer could see that argument through, or at least convince the EFL's lawyers that the point could be argued successfully in court, if required. 

 

Unless we are going to do something this January which more or less guarantees us promotion this season, I would rather not run the risk of having a possible points deduction hanging over us this summer. We have suffered enough in recent summers through our chairman owner's bad accounting to have to suffer another transfer embargo. If a points deduction is coming next season and a possible embargo to go with we can either lay down and wait for it (which after all is the sensible way to approach these matters), or let's spend our way out of the division right now with some proper silly money and make sure that we have a squad capable of doing what must be done this season, next season, or the one after that!

 

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Bet all you lot on this thread go looking for your hidden Christmas pressies before the 25th..

It's the surprise of not knowing what's exciting!!!

lol

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58 minutes ago, room0035 said:

But when West ham and Spurs changed owners it was actual a different owner not the same person using another company that he/she owned. :duntmatter:

 

Sorry I didn't realise that DC and his wife were in fact the same person. I apologise for my stupidity. There are lots of different ways that ownership can be changed, owning a holding company is apparently not the same as owning a company that a holding company owns etc so only when ownership of the club changes would a change of ownership apply, obviously!

 

:ghoulguy:

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Just now, Ante's Bubbly said:

 

Sorry I didn't realise that DC and his wife were in fact the same person. I apologise for my stupidity. There are lots of different ways that ownership can be changed, owning a holding company is apparently not the same as owning a company that a holding company owns etc so only when ownership of the club changes would a change of ownership apply, obviously!

 

:ghoulguy:

So you really believe that DC wife is running the business and DC is taking a backward step and the new business is not simple DC running it but using his wife's name....

 

 

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6 minutes ago, OWLERTON GHOST said:

Bet all you lot on this thread go looking for your hidden Christmas pressies before the 25th..

It's the surprise of not knowing what's exciting!!!

lol

 

I like a surprise, and usually, as much, if not more than the present, but as you are now part of the thread you can go and look for next years pressies now, if you wish to prove your point? Hope you aren't too disappointed.

 

I just like debating with people, that like everybody to think they know exactly what is happening, or going to happen.

 

Unfortunately as a consequence certain Romany people and several religious faiths have contracts out on me, which explains why I am wearing such unusual clothes in my Avatar photo.

:image: 

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Personally Id' be worried if we aren't handed a fine in January.

 

My thinking being = Fine in January would probably be a low to mid one (9 - 12 points)

 

Anything larger, that has a baring on our season as a whole, eg. relegation they'll surely hold off until end or near end of the season. I mean, if they deducted us 30-40 points now, we'd not play a game for the rest of this season in protest.

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5 minutes ago, room0035 said:

So you really believe that DC wife is running the business and DC is taking a backward step and the new business is not simple DC running it but using his wife's name....

 

 

 

I didn't say that, I was simply pointing out that change of ownership can be brought about legally and without having to reveal who the actual owners actually are. Ask Ken Bates. Or by selling shares to another party, or by selling up altogether, to a relative, or a friend, or a total stranger, but if we do not get a points deduction that does not have to happen anyway. I am more than a little bit disappointed that DC has not given the fans a shareholding in the club. You never know, the EFL may take such a move as a forward step by him. 

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22 minutes ago, Ante's Bubbly said:

As far as I have seen, the buying or selling of a club's ground is perfectly legitimate and has been happening on and off for a number of years, not just in the present money juggling times.

 

Under old FFP rules profits from ground sales couldn't be included in the FFP calculation.  With the introduction of P&S they were allowed for the first time in the 2017-18 season  

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7 hours ago, helmut_rooster said:

 

BlackSpeedyFirefly-size_restricted.gif

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ReliableSmugGuillemot-size_restricted.gif

Brilliant.

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8 hours ago, Ever the pessimist said:


They should take their parachute payments off them. Bet they won’t though.

 

They won't no, because they can't

 

On the subject of potential sanctions for us though lets just do what the coaching and playing staff are doing and just take it a game at a time and wait and see

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20 minutes ago, Ante's Bubbly said:

 

I just like debating with people, 

I'm suggesting boxing gloves as an instant cure 

stuwink.gif.b033ee7c320af9ac14b5d5e4d8a9bda9.gif.4371d3418119481601b3156d73e47c2d.gif

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Just now, OWLERTON GHOST said:

I'm suggesting boxing gloves as an instant cure 

stuwink.gif.b033ee7c320af9ac14b5d5e4d8a9bda9.gif.4371d3418119481601b3156d73e47c2d.gif

:tango:

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44 minutes ago, HarrowbyOwl said:

Yep, you're right, 8.1 FFP replaced by 5.1 P&S

 

5.1 If a Club is promoted or relegated out of the Championship Division that Club shall, notwithstanding promotion or relegation, remain bound by these as if it were still a Championship Club, until such time as it has complied with all of its obligations relating to its last Season as a Championship Club.

 

Really not sure what happens in regard to promoted teams carrying forward points deductions into the Prem.

As far as I can see the Premier League rules only allow points deductions in cases of insolvency but not FFP breaches. They are looking at it though:

https://www.90min.com/posts/6521970-premier-league-consider-introducing-points-deduction-as-punishment-for-ffp-breaches

Yep, but again, thats for breaches of the EPL's FFP rules not for EFL P&S. I can't see any reference to this claim that the EPL are considering upholding the EFLs punishments for promoted clubs. I'm sure someone on here with more knowledge than me on these matters will be able to provide some more detail but as things stand it's all up in the air as far as I can see.

 

It's an unprecedented situation and the EFL are constantly changing the rules almost on the fly. 

 

Bottom line.....no-one knows. That's why I think the club is right to challenge the EFL at every turn, this could go on well beyond this season.

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