Clive Betts responds in SAG / SCC. Write to your Councillor or MP

[nevthelodgemoorowl]

See response from Clive Betts MP.

[markowl]

Where?

[Greengrass]

There probably isn't one......

[nevthelodgemoorowl]

Just now, markowl said:

Where?

SAG / SCC. Write to your Councillor or MP Always told not to open new thread about old topic, it doesn't work yesterdays chip paper. I should have started a new topic.

[tarn owl]

Tech fail or clever bait thread. Time will tell.......................

[nevthelodgemoorowl]

A good thorough response maybe mods could pin it ?

 

[Flat Owl]

pin what Nev?

 

Ahhhh - its a link - clever   

Edited September 2, 2019 by Flat Owl

[nevthelodgemoorowl]

Forget the request here it is...……..

 

To: John Mothersole, Julie Dore,
 
cc Deputy CC Mark Roberts,  Alan Billings, Lindsay Taylor, Secretary SWFC
 
Dear John and Julie

I am writing with regard to the prohibition notice which has been put on Sheffield Wednesday’s Hillsborough Stadium with regard to home fans exiting at the Leppings Lane End of the ground.   I have had a number of emails now, some from constituents, some from residents in other parts of Sheffield, all of whom are Wednesday supporters and as their emails, which I am copying to you explain, many of them are regulars at the game and therefore see at first hand the crowd arrangements on a regular basis.
 
There are a number of concerns that have been expressed.   One is the inconvenience now which home fans are being put to, some of whom have to walk to the Kop End of the ground at Penistone Road then walk right back to Leppings Lane.   That is obviously all right and very convenient for some more mobile younger people but not necessarily for people who may find that length of walk a challenge and little consideration appears to have been given to them in this process.  
 
Secondly, there is the whole issue about whether the prohibition is necessary at all.   The emails say that people who go to the game on a regular basis see the arrangements and as far as they are concerned they operate perfectly smoothly and have done over many years without any significant problems.   Why is it necessary therefore to bring these new arrangements in?  
 
The third issue is on what basis the prohibition order has been issues.   Is it true that the only basis on which the police acted was the report that they requested from Aston University.   If that is the case should not a bit more thorough research have been done before a decision of this magnitude was taken?   It really is difficult to understand why one group of researchers unfamiliar with the ground doing one survey of one game should lead to this sort of action.
 
Fourthly, in terms of the logistics of that end of the stadium, I think we can all appreciate it is not necessarily ideal.   Could you explain how it is different to the Bramall Lane end of the Bramall Lane Ground where away supporters go but home supporters come out of the same end of the ground?  The amount of room at the Bramall Lane end is just as constrained, in fact probably more constrained, than that on the concourse at Leppings Lane spreading across the road.   Obviously that arrangement is restricted if coaches are drawn up across the concourse and what has been said by some individuals is that the only problems at Leppings Lane have occurred when the police have insisted on coaches coming that close.   But I come back to the point surely the Bramall Lane end at Bramall Lane is just as congested and yet away fans come out in the same point as home fans at that ground.
 
Finally, a contrast between the way that police have acted with the City Council following the complaints following the Derby game between Wednesday and United last season.   There is a feeling that the police have acted in this way to cover their own inadequacies on the evening and there was widespread concern about the way the police handled it and I think the police have accepted some responsibility for that.   Nevertheless, that has resulted in an investigation, a report being commissioned and immediate action taken despite the fact that the Club has said they do not believe that this is appropriate.   I contrast this with the complaints that were made, and I certainly made them on behalf of people about this crushing that occurred outside Bramall Lane before the Derby last season with Wednesday.     I have never had a proper response from the Council who have simply accepted that the Club said nothing needs to be done.   There is therefore a distinct contrast between Wednesday saying there is no problem but the Council and the police deciding to take action, and United saying there was no problem and the police and the Council apparently just accepting it and no further investigation being carried out.   Indeed, I have not had a reply from the Council’s Chief Executive to the last three emails I have sent giving more information about the concerns that were expressed to me on that occasion.
 
I look forward to a reply as I am sure you understand that this is not just me raising these issues but the emails I have sent demonstrate the widespread concern and bemusement of many Wednesday supporters at the action that has been taken.
 
Having just drafted this email I received further information from a long standing friend, John Colby, who is also a Sheffield United supporter.   He is drawing attention to the problems outside the Bramall Lane End of the Ground with the lack of space and that here away and home supporters are let out of the same side of the ground exactly the problem which has been addressed with the prohibition order at Hillsborough.   I do think these issues need to be looked at seriously.   There is a very strong feeling that the police and the Council have got all this wrong, I got lots of comments at Preston last Saturday from Wednesday away supporters who go regularly, all of whom are saying essentially that the decision is a wrong one and needs looking at again.
 
I look forward to your response on both the issues of the prohibition notice at Hillsborough and also the concerns I have raised about Bramall Lane in the past and are now being raised by John Colby which I have never had a proper response to.

Yours sincerely

Clive Betts MP

Sheffield South East
 

[Pastor Kidneys]

Why don't we designate the upper LL to Owls supporters and lower LL to away supporters as they do at Bramall Lane ... That should pose SAG a problem then!

[lanzaroteowl]

Well said that man!

[OhForAnotherShez]

Well done Clive!!

[Harrysgame]

Great letter that, not much room to wriggle out of that one SAG.

Looks like a total stitch up from the Police and the Council.

Like the part re the lane where the council and police accept uniteds reply that all ok now.

 

[31Dec1966]

Absolutely superb letter.  There were 2 police filming at the end of the QPR game on Penistone Road. I politely said to them "tell your bosses they've got this all wrong, they're creating a problem where one doesnt exist". One of them replied "Come here and I'll explain it to you ". They are simply not interested in the views of thousands of law abiding citizens who have attended hundreds of matches each (many with crowds double that of Saturday) without a problem. I am the last person in the world to give any credence whatsoever to conspiracy theories but this is so counter intuitive there must be some agenda. You would think SYP would show a little humility after failing to protect Rotherham girls, the disaster and hounding Cliff Richard without any evidence, but No, they are as arrogant as ever.  Football fans must be the last group in the country who can be treated this way without an outcry.

[happy bunny]

11 minutes ago, 31Dec1966 said:

Absolutely superb letter.  There were 2 police filming at the end of the QPR game on Penistone Road. I politely said to them "tell your bosses they've got this all wrong, they're creating a problem where one doesnt exist". One of them replied "Come here and I'll explain it to you ". They are simply not interested in the views of thousands of law abiding citizens who have attended hundreds of matches each (many with crowds double that of Saturday) without a problem. I am the last person in the world to give any credence whatsoever to conspiracy theories but this is so counter intuitive there must be some agenda. You would think SYP would show a little humility after failing to protect Rotherham girls, the disaster and hounding Cliff Richard without any evidence, but No, they are as arrogant as ever.  Football fans must be the last group in the country who can be treated this way without an outcry.

 

What did he explain?

[bigthinrob]

1 hour ago, nevthelodgemoorowl said:

Forget the request here it is...……..

 

To: John Mothersole, Julie Dore,
 
cc Deputy CC Mark Roberts,  Alan Billings, Lindsay Taylor, Secretary SWFC
 
Dear John and Julie

I am writing with regard to the prohibition notice which has been put on Sheffield Wednesday’s Hillsborough Stadium with regard to home fans exiting at the Leppings Lane End of the ground.   I have had a number of emails now, some from constituents, some from residents in other parts of Sheffield, all of whom are Wednesday supporters and as their emails, which I am copying to you explain, many of them are regulars at the game and therefore see at first hand the crowd arrangements on a regular basis.
 
There are a number of concerns that have been expressed.   One is the inconvenience now which home fans are being put to, some of whom have to walk to the Kop End of the ground at Penistone Road then walk right back to Leppings Lane.   That is obviously all right and very convenient for some more mobile younger people but not necessarily for people who may find that length of walk a challenge and little consideration appears to have been given to them in this process.  
 
Secondly, there is the whole issue about whether the prohibition is necessary at all.   The emails say that people who go to the game on a regular basis see the arrangements and as far as they are concerned they operate perfectly smoothly and have done over many years without any significant problems.   Why is it necessary therefore to bring these new arrangements in?  
 
The third issue is on what basis the prohibition order has been issues.   Is it true that the only basis on which the police acted was the report that they requested from Aston University.   If that is the case should not a bit more thorough research have been done before a decision of this magnitude was taken?   It really is difficult to understand why one group of researchers unfamiliar with the ground doing one survey of one game should lead to this sort of action.
 
Fourthly, in terms of the logistics of that end of the stadium, I think we can all appreciate it is not necessarily ideal.   Could you explain how it is different to the Bramall Lane end of the Bramall Lane Ground where away supporters go but home supporters come out of the same end of the ground?  The amount of room at the Bramall Lane end is just as constrained, in fact probably more constrained, than that on the concourse at Leppings Lane spreading across the road.   Obviously that arrangement is restricted if coaches are drawn up across the concourse and what has been said by some individuals is that the only problems at Leppings Lane have occurred when the police have insisted on coaches coming that close.   But I come back to the point surely the Bramall Lane end at Bramall Lane is just as congested and yet away fans come out in the same point as home fans at that ground.
 
Finally, a contrast between the way that police have acted with the City Council following the complaints following the Derby game between Wednesday and United last season.   There is a feeling that the police have acted in this way to cover their own inadequacies on the evening and there was widespread concern about the way the police handled it and I think the police have accepted some responsibility for that.   Nevertheless, that has resulted in an investigation, a report being commissioned and immediate action taken despite the fact that the Club has said they do not believe that this is appropriate.   I contrast this with the complaints that were made, and I certainly made them on behalf of people about this crushing that occurred outside Bramall Lane before the Derby last season with Wednesday.     I have never had a proper response from the Council who have simply accepted that the Club said nothing needs to be done.   There is therefore a distinct contrast between Wednesday saying there is no problem but the Council and the police deciding to take action, and United saying there was no problem and the police and the Council apparently just accepting it and no further investigation being carried out.   Indeed, I have not had a reply from the Council’s Chief Executive to the last three emails I have sent giving more information about the concerns that were expressed to me on that occasion.
 
I look forward to a reply as I am sure you understand that this is not just me raising these issues but the emails I have sent demonstrate the widespread concern and bemusement of many Wednesday supporters at the action that has been taken.
 
Having just drafted this email I received further information from a long standing friend, John Colby, who is also a Sheffield United supporter.   He is drawing attention to the problems outside the Bramall Lane End of the Ground with the lack of space and that here away and home supporters are let out of the same side of the ground exactly the problem which has been addressed with the prohibition order at Hillsborough.   I do think these issues need to be looked at seriously.   There is a very strong feeling that the police and the Council have got all this wrong, I got lots of comments at Preston last Saturday from Wednesday away supporters who go regularly, all of whom are saying essentially that the decision is a wrong one and needs looking at again.
 
I look forward to your response on both the issues of the prohibition notice at Hillsborough and also the concerns I have raised about Bramall Lane in the past and are now being raised by John Colby which I have never had a proper response to.

Yours sincerely

Clive Betts MP

Sheffield South East
 

Cheers for that Nev.

 

AWKWARD for certain people, usually very comfortable in their own sheltered positions.

[English Man]

Good letter that. I'd say only think missing is that (I've not been to Hillsborough this season) people have said the prohibition notice is causing bigger problem at the Penistone Road end. Congestion. And overspill onto Penistone Road caused by the notice doesn't really get a mention.

 

Apart from that it's well worded and asks some important questions. 

[bash]

I've been following this with interest since the SAG/SYP began this scheme.

 

For the last two seasons I've been at both the derby games at the away end, and attended both games with my young son, and I've attended several derby games on the away end over the last 30 years.

 

It wasn't up until the bouncing day massacre (well as a Blade I've got call it that) that there was a change to the policing arrangements, both sets of fans we're let out at the same time, and it was a case of covering up colours, keeping my head down until I got away from the ground. 

 

Last season we held back In our seats for 10 minutes before leaving as the season before we held in a crush and almost caught up in a crush on the steps leading down from the Leppings Lane, so when we did leave we was let straight out of the ground in the concourse outside where was effectively kettled, and was caught up with having coins and other stuff thrown at us, and then having the crowd pushed back towards us which could have seen me and my lad pinned back against the turnstiles on the Leppings Lane. When we did eventually get allowed leave we walked back up to Foxhill where I parked the car, and when we walked past the New Bridge Inn at Wadsley Bridge I even had a group of teenagers ask me if we was Wednesday or United, I was by myself with a 9 year old child for fizz sake.

 

I know Hillsborough fairly well, and the biggest part of the problem is there is only really two ways to exit the ground, either on to Leppings Lane or Penistone Road, which will always create a flashpoint and ugly scenes at the Leppings Lane end, especially if there is a big travelling crowd or it is a local derby where passions run high. The difference between Bramall Lane and Hillsborough is that there are several ways to exit Bramall Lane and for big games the away crowd is funnelled out of Bramall Lane by steel barriers which seems to be a lot safer way of doing things. Prehaps part of the solution is to redesign the back of the South Stand at Hillsborough so the home fans can exit the stadium over the bridge on to Parkside Road and then you could funnel the North Stand down Leppings Lane towards Law Brothers and the away fans up to the Tram Stop? Prehaps the solution is to only have these measures in place for when it is a high risk fixture rather than doing it all the time when the risk is far, far less. 

 

The problem seems to have got a lot worse over the last few years as the rivalry seems to spill over to raw hatred a lot more. My girlfriend of a few years and her two children are all Wednesdayites and season ticket holders on the kop, I've got plenty of friends who are Wednesdayites, I love the banter that flies about, the gentle stick we give each other. However on the flip side a visit to Hillsborough seems to be more like running the gauntlet of Stone Island clad grown up children with cocaine inspired ADHD. As much as I love the banter I've absolutely began to despise the hatred that people are quick to show. The horrendous, and continued abuse our managers daughter has had to endure over the last two years, the unwarranted and uncalled for crass attempt to label Dean Henderson as a paedophile last season on social media and the subsequent abuse he received after. I can't ever remember football becoming this bad for a long long time. Its not just a Sheffield thing either, travelling home on Saturday night when the media should have been talking about a great game of football, the narrative changed when it transpired that some oxygen stealing twats had racially abused Kurt Zouma. 

 

Last season I vowed not to take my son to a derby match at Hillsborough until he is much older, so who wins? It certainly isn't me who now doesn't feel safe coming out of Leppings Lane with a child who loves his football team more than life itself. 

 

What I'm trying to say here might not be on the same song sheet as many on here, but it worthwhile to give the viewpoint of someone who occasionally visits Hillsborough as an away fan to give an different viewpoint on the problems you have at Hillsborough when it comes to crowd safety.

[Ronnie Starling]

Clive Betts's letter asks some good questions that need to be urgently addressed by the council and police.

[megsonstheman]

If you read the letter, Mothershole hasn't replied to his last 3 emails so what makes you think he will reply to this one?

[northeastowl]

18 minutes ago, bash said:

I've been following this with interest since the SAG/SYP began this scheme.

 

For the last two seasons I've been at both the derby games at the away end, and attended both games with my young son, and I've attended several derby games on the away end over the last 30 years.

 

It wasn't up until the bouncing day massacre (well as a Blade I've got call it that) that there was a change to the policing arrangements, both sets of fans we're let out at the same time, and it was a case of covering up colours, keeping my head down until I got away from the ground. 

 

Last season we held back In our seats for 10 minutes before leaving as the season before we held in a crush and almost caught up in a crush on the steps leading down from the Leppings Lane, so when we did leave we was let straight out of the ground in the concourse outside where was effectively kettled, and was caught up with having coins and other stuff thrown at us, and then having the crowd pushed back towards us which could have seen me and my lad pinned back against the turnstiles on the Leppings Lane. When we did eventually get allowed leave we walked back up to Foxhill where I parked the car, and when we walked past the New Bridge Inn at Wadsley Bridge I even had a group of teenagers ask me if we was Wednesday or United, I was by myself with a 9 year old child for fizz sake.

 

I know Hillsborough fairly well, and the biggest part of the problem is there is only really two ways to exit the ground, either on to Leppings Lane or Penistone Road, which will always create a flashpoint and ugly scenes at the Leppings Lane end, especially if there is a big travelling crowd or it is a local derby where passions run high. The difference between Bramall Lane and Hillsborough is that there are several ways to exit Bramall Lane and for big games the away crowd is funnelled out of Bramall Lane by steel barriers which seems to be a lot safer way of doing things. Prehaps part of the solution is to redesign the back of the South Stand at Hillsborough so the home fans can exit the stadium over the bridge on to Parkside Road and then you could funnel the North Stand down Leppings Lane towards Law Brothers and the away fans up to the Tram Stop? Prehaps the solution is to only have these measures in place for when it is a high risk fixture rather than doing it all the time when the risk is far, far less. 

 

The problem seems to have got a lot worse over the last few years as the rivalry seems to spill over to raw hatred a lot more. My girlfriend of a few years and her two children are all Wednesdayites and season ticket holders on the kop, I've got plenty of friends who are Wednesdayites, I love the banter that flies about, the gentle stick we give each other. However on the flip side a visit to Hillsborough seems to be more like running the gauntlet of Stone Island clad grown up children with cocaine inspired ADHD. As much as I love the banter I've absolutely began to despise the hatred that people are quick to show. The horrendous, and continued abuse our managers daughter has had to endure over the last two years, the unwarranted and uncalled for crass attempt to label Dean Henderson as a paedophile last season on social media and the subsequent abuse he received after. I can't ever remember football becoming this bad for a long long time. Its not just a Sheffield thing either, travelling home on Saturday night when the media should have been talking about a great game of football, the narrative changed when it transpired that some oxygen stealing twats had racially abused Kurt Zouma. 

 

Last season I vowed not to take my son to a derby match at Hillsborough until he is much older, so who wins? It certainly isn't me who now doesn't feel safe coming out of Leppings Lane with a child who loves his football team more than life itself. 

 

What I'm trying to say here might not be on the same song sheet as many on here, but it worthwhile to give the viewpoint of someone who occasionally visits Hillsborough as an away fan to give an different viewpoint on the problems you have at Hillsborough when it comes to crowd safety.

 

I agree there a few issues at Hillsborough when we play certain teams however you coming on here giving us grief is a bit rich when you look at what goes off at your ground.