Are the players doing as they're told?

[Errol Flashman]

 

I just wondered coz , let's be reight managers don't send their teams out to fanny about.  I know that Bullen said he wanted us to go out and be quick and attacking and use overloads in the wide areas by getting the ball out wide to our full backs against their 3-5-2.

 

There was a bit in the first half, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who saw it. QPR jad attacked down our right , it jad come to nowt and Westwood had the ball.

Soon as he got it Fox and Palmer split  wide and advanced both calling for the ball. 

Borner was pointing at Fox but Westwood took an age with it and Bullen was at the edge of his technical area going apoplectic pointing and waving his arms about that he wanted the ball thrown wide quickly. 

It was only about 30 seconds, but by that time QPR were all back in position. Borner did one of them frustrated open palm gestures to Westwood.  Bullen was still screaming across and Westwood did one of them calm down gestures with his hands before picking the ball up. 

 

Then with QPR all slotted back into shape  Hutchinson came back 20 yards behind Iorfa and Borner to collect it. 

Bullen turned back to the bench with a face like absolute  thunder.

 

Now before anyone starts this ain't an anti Westwood thread or owt. 

He is (and always has been since he came here) our best keeper. He should always start IMO. 

 

My point is, if players aren't doing what the gaffer wants then he's on a hiding to nothing.  No matter what he's trying to do. 

Mebbe it's coz they know him and know there's nowt he can really do about it.

 

I know there's a lot of talk about them kids at Lincoln or whatever but can they deal with big personalities in the dressing room. Internationals.  Millionaires etc. I know that shunt make a difference. But it can.  

I think whoever comes in , whatever their tactics or what have you needs to be someone who's going to be a proper gaffer.  Get thst respect.

 

Not sure if there's anyone out there.  And I'm not slagging Bullen off here. I don't think a caretaker whoever it is can get that sort of respect because the lads know he might be going back to being the coach again soon. 

Bit like at school when you had a stand in teacher and took the piśs knowing he wouldn't be there next week. 

 

I don't know who I want to get the job. They could all do great or do crap. Nobdy knows really.  

 

But this caretaker thing I don't think can go on. It ain't good for the team. It's certainly no good for Bullen I think he's been hungout to dry in no man's land taking the blame for everyhing. (I k ow the tactics were down to him, but that performance was about far more than 352, 442, whatever) there was no cohesiveness and they played the exact opposite of what he said he wanted in the pre match that's application and attitude in my opinion. 

 

Not saying I want him to get the job full time by the way.  Not a fan boy.

 

But I think he's been let down by everyone really.  Owner and players.

 

Think he's being used a buffer by the chairman

And a fall guy by the players

 

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by DEH9

[WalthamOwl]

Yes imo the players aren’t giving their all for Bullen which is one reason he shouldn’t get the permanent job. Feel a little sorry for Bullen to be honest. 

[lanzaroteowl]

They are probably working to a plan.

 

It's just a bad plan.

[Tommycraign10others]

I think your point about Westwood is a valid one and you could see Bruce getting exasperated by it in his time at Hillsborough.  It makes you think maybe Jos tried to  sort this issue out but was beaten by the players remains at the club. Seems to me a strong manager is needed together with a clear out.  

Interestingly I hear Westwood is not particularly helpful to the younger keepers either. 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Tommycraign10others

[dorian gray]

bullen isn't good enough, he never has been, he never will be.

maybe the players are undermining him by thinking b****x, but that only shows he doesn't command the respect needed.

IF bully wants to be a manager he needs to leave s6 for L1 or even 2.

good point about the cowley's though, could be a brian clough and l**ds job, and one to avoid.

[prowl]

If Westwood doesn't do what the coach tells him to do then the coach should have him in the office and tell him why he wants him to play that way. If he refuses or just doesn't do as asked he needs dropping. Same with any player, nobody should be bigger than the club.

 

The managers job is on the line, these days a few bad results and the manager gets his cards. Players have to respect the manager for it to work.

 

Maybe Bullen is too close to the players, maybe he doesn't have their respect, maybe he's not got the strength of character.

 

It's always a problem when one of the lads gets promoted over his mates, Been there, done that. The relationship has to change. You can't stay their mate and have authority. It's a difficult line to walk.

 

[Howards back]

Westwood’s distribution is one of our problems as you described he takes an age whether it’s goal kicks or in play the opposition are in position by the time he releases the ball. We need to get the ball forward faster and that doesn’t mean hoofing it forward. Pass it through midfield one touch then forward put the opposition on the back foot then maybe we will have more chances to score. All we do now is take our time distributing the ball and letting the other team get their defence set up. 

[GMOwl72]

Put them on the naughty step for 10 minutes!

[Howards back]

3 minutes ago, prowl said:

If Westwood doesn't do what the coach tells him to do then the coach should have him in the office and tell him why he wants him to play that way. If he refuses or just doesn't do as asked he needs dropping. Same with any player, nobody should be bigger than the club.

 

The managers job is on the line, these days a few bad results and the manager gets his cards. Players have to respect the manager for it to work.

 

Maybe Bullen is too close to the players, maybe he doesn't have their respect, maybe he's not got the strength of character.

 

It's always a problem when one of the lads gets promoted over his mates, Been there, done that. The relationship has to change. You can't stay their mate and have authority. It's a difficult line to walk.

 

Maybe that’s why jos left him out and we all know what shiit that caused among the fans. 

[Errol Flashman]

10 minutes ago, prowl said:

 

It's always a problem when one of the lads gets promoted over his mates, Been there, done that. The relationship has to change. You can't stay their mate and have authority. It's a difficult line to walk.

 

 

That's me point really. He ain't been promoted , he's standing in. That ain't ever gonna work over a long period. 

I'm not advocating him for the job by any means, but if he's gonna do it, then they should give it him. That at least puts him a position where the players have to do as they're told or they're out.

 

Stand ins can't do that. Not when there's a chance they have to go back to what they were doing before.  

 

It's give it him , or give it someone else. 

At  minute he's just there to be shot at every times there's a halfarsed performance. 

 

(I'm not absolving him of blame.its just there's more to defeats than formation etc.  Like everyone singing off the same hymn sheet. 

 

As a player you might not like the plan. 

But you've still more chance of winning if everyone sticks to it than doing their own thing.

[Errol Flashman]

25 minutes ago, lanzaroteowl said:

They are probably working to a plan.

 

It's just a bad plan.

 

It might be a bad plan. 

 

But me point is if they're not following it then if undermines the whole thing.

[cookeh]

19 minutes ago, DEH9 said:

But me point is if they're not following it then if undermines the whole thing.

 

Makes me wonder if that's something they've worked on in training, or if Bullen's just trying to manage druing the game.

i.e. shouting instructions, expecting players to follow them 'live' rather than having spent time working on "how we're going to play on saturday" during the week.

 

It's one thing to say in a press conference that you want to play X way.. but you actually have to spend time on the training pitch doing exactly that.

 

That Bullen is screaming at players to do things which should have been nailed down during the week (and the last 2 months given that's how long Bullen's been in charge now), then he's not worked on it enough/at all. That or he straight up isn't able to exercise his authority over the players with regard to how he wants them to play. Either way.. it doesn't look good for Bullen.

[Guest wilyfox]

Players keep a manager in job, or get him sacked. That's the reality. Job of manager is to push the right buttons to motivate them.

 

Was it 3 defeats in 18 for Bruce? 3 in 6 for Bullen. Says it all. 

[Blatter]

44 minutes ago, Howards back said:

Maybe that’s why jos left him out and we all know what shiit that caused among the fans. 

Was thinking much the same.

But hark back a couple of weeks.

Dawson was getting sh....er criticised on here cos his kicks were hurried and erratic.

 

[smhouston]

The players may or may not be playing for Bullen, but what is for certain is the players did not choose to switch to 3-5-2 on Saturday, Bullen did. That alone was Bullens naivety showing through. Not only that but continues with the Hutchinson / Bannan partnership which hasn't been working for a long time now, even under other managers which Bullen will have witnessed. 

 

As for trying to lay more blame at DC, can people really blame him for seeing what happens with Bullen when the past 3 managers have been hit and miss or stabbed him in the back? Bullen had a good start with us results wise, and now gone sour, but there's nothing to say DC hasn't now decided with international break he can step up hunt for a new manager, which I hope he does

[scilly owl]

I’m not sure that it’s mainly a “ mentality thing “ as Bullen keeps saying. I’m not even sure what that eludes to. 

Maybe it’s a subconscious ploy to divert the criticism from his rather dull tactics.

Is he suggesting that the players are so mentally weak and fragile that they are incapable of following a prearranged game plan or that it makes them capitulate when the opposition score ?

Seriously, what does he mean by “ the problem is mainly a mentality thing “ ?

[Hack-Abusi]

Howard Wilkinson	England	24 June 1983	10 October 1988	255	114	73	68	44.71
Peter Eustace	England	28 October 1988	14 February 1989	18	2	9	7	11.11
Ron Atkinson	England	14 February 1989	6 June 1991	118	49	34	35	41.53
Trevor Francis	England	7 June 1991	20 May 1995	214	88	58	68	41.12
David Pleat	England	14 June 1995	3 November 1997	102	32	40	30	31.37
Ron Atkinson	England	14 November 1997	17 May 1998	27	9	11	7	33.33
Danny Wilson	Northern Ireland	6 July 1998	21 March 2000	80	23	40	17	28.75
Paul Jewell	England	21 June 2000	12 February 2001	38	12	21	5	31.58
Peter Shreeves	England	12 February 2001	17 October 2001	31	11	11	9	35.48
Terry Yorath	Wales	17 October 2001	31 October 2002	56	16	25	15	28.57
Chris Turner	England	7 November 2002	19 September 2004	96	29	36	31	30.21
Paul Sturrock	Scotland	23 September 2004	19 October 2006	104	35	40	29	33.65
Brian Laws	England	6 November 2006	13 December 2009	154	52	60	42	33.77
Alan Irvine	Scotland	8 January 2010	3 February 2011	59	24	22	13	40.68
Gary Megson	England	4 February 2011	29 February 2012	62	28	22	12	45.16
Dave Jones	England	1 March 2012	1 December 2013	81	29	30	22	35.80
Stuart Gray	England	1 December 2013	11 June 2015	68	26	19	23	38.24
Carlos Carvalhal	Portugal	30 June 2015	24 December 2017	131	56	38	37	42.75
Jos Luhukay	Netherlands	5 January 2018	21 December 2018	48	16	13	19	33.33
Steve Bruce	England	1 February 2019	17 July 2019	18	7	8	3	38.89

 

Lee Bullens win rate is 41% over 3 spells .early days I know ..

 

I think it possibly goes to show how much fan expectation is that we should be winning shed loads of games instead of losing or drawing ... maybe we expect too much

 

Alan Irvine at 40% as well .. blimey!

[mogbad]

Being slow to distribute the ball is happens regularly with Westwood. As far as players not doing as they're are told is concerned I think it's more to do with chopping & changing the side & formation too much resulting in the players being unsure of each others roles. I know Bullen has to make adjustments depending on the opposition but for me he's doing too much & causing our current on field issues. Certainly the quality we've got out there should be achieving better results than we have. 

[Owl999]

2 hours ago, DEH9 said:

 

I just wondered coz , let's be reight managers don't send their teams out to fanny about.  I know that Bullen said he wanted us to go out and be quick and attacking and use overloads in the wide areas by getting the ball out wide to our full backs against their 3-5-2.

 

There was a bit in the first half, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who saw it. QPR jad attacked down our right , it jad come to nowt and Westwood had the ball.

Soon as he got it Fox and Palmer split  wide and advanced both calling for the ball. 

Borner was pointing at Fox but Westwood took an age with it and Bullen was at the edge of his technical area going apoplectic pointing and waving his arms about that he wanted the ball thrown wide quickly. 

It was only about 30 seconds, but by that time QPR were all back in position. Borner did one of them frustrated open palm gestures to Westwood.  Bullen was still screaming across and Westwood did one of them calm down gestures with his hands before picking the ball up. 

 

Then with QPR all slotted back into shape  Hutchinson came back 20 yards behind Iorfa and Borner to collect it. 

Bullen turned back to the bench with a face like absolute  thunder.

 

Now before anyone starts this ain't an anti Westwood thread or owt. 

He is (and always has been since he came here) our best keeper. He should always start IMO. 

 

My point is, if players aren't doing what the gaffer wants then he's on a hiding to nothing.  No matter what he's trying to do. 

Mebbe it's coz they know him and know there's nowt he can really do about it.

 

I know there's a lot of talk about them kids at Lincoln or whatever but can they deal with big personalities in the dressing room. Internationals.  Millionaires etc. I know that shunt make a difference. But it can.  

I think whoever comes in , whatever their tactics or what have you needs to be someone who's going to be a proper gaffer.  Get thst respect.

 

Not sure if there's anyone out there.  And I'm not slagging Bullen off here. I don't think a caretaker whoever it is can get that sort of respect because the lads know he might be going back to being the coach again soon. 

Bit like at school when you had a stand in teacher and took the piśs knowing he wouldn't be there next week. 

 

I don't know who I want to get the job. They could all do great or do crap. Nobdy knows really.  

 

But this caretaker thing I don't think can go on. It ain't good for the team. It's certainly no good for Bullen I think he's been hungout to dry in no man's land taking the blame for everyhing. (I k ow the tactics were down to him, but that performance was about far more than 352, 442, whatever) there was no cohesiveness and they played the exact opposite of what he said he wanted in the pre match that's application and attitude in my opinion. 

 

Not saying I want him to get the job full time by the way.  Not a fan boy.

 

But I think he's been let down by everyone really.  Owner and players.

 

Think he's being used a buffer by the chairman

And a fall guy by the players

 

 

 

 

Don’t think they would play for Danny Crowley either 

[Errol Flashman]

1 hour ago, smhouston said:

The players may or may not be playing for Bullen, but what is for certain is the players did not choose to switch to 3-5-2 on Saturday, Bullen did. That alone was Bullens naivety showing through. Not only that but continues with the Hutchinson / Bannan partnership which hasn't been working for a long time now, even under other managers which Bullen will have witnessed. 

 

Formation is up to him. No doubt, but that wasn't what I was meaning.

 

Point I'm trying to make is that you can play 442, 352, 343, 424, 4231, 433, 4123, WM, 235, and  it doesn't matter a jot if folks don't do what they've told to do.