A E Neuman NYowl Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 21 minutes ago, steelerian said: Midfield has been our problem for many years. As are our full backs. Many like to think that our strikers arent good enough (probably true also), but the biggest problem is the lack of supply and support to our strikers. But this can be remedied by tweaking our system a little, by simply getting more men, a lot more men, further up field. Today I watched Wednesday play 433 v Preston, then I watched Liverpool play 433 v Arsenal. Wednesday and Liverpool play 433 so differently. Worlds apart. Liverpool essentially play a 253, with the full backs playing very high almost as orthodox wingers, whipping in cross after cross and supporting the play, always being an option. Their 3 strikers are actual strikers, not wingers, and get into the box at every opportunity. And their midfielders really cover box to box. Wednesday essentially play 451, with a very flat back 4, 2 very deep midfielders, 2 wingers who stay too wide, meaning a very isolated lone striker, and a 3rd central midfielder who has too much ground to cover alone. Full backs are merely watching most of the game, redundant. This clearly doesn't work. It doesn't allow us to press high, it doesn't lead to enough turnovers or chances created, it doesn't allow ball retention and recycling in the opponents half of the pitch, and more counter productively it allows us to be pressed back, rather than the other way around. Now obviously we dont have the quality that Liverpool have in the squad, or the pace, or the engines, so I'm not going to try to compare our players, but that doesn't mean we cant all shift further up field where we can be a LOT more effective, and it would definitely allow us to score more goals. Seriously, we would look a totally different team if we just watched how Liverpool played, and assumed similar positions out on the park, and shifted 20-30 yards further up. It may even turn Bannan into the player we all know he can be, but isnt being. Stranger things have happened. Oh, and finally, it would be a hell of a lot more exciting to watch. You have hit the nail on the head. Its not just the midfield it is also the fullbacks who are not pushing forward and supporting the midfield. For 75 minutes today we played with a flat back 5, with Hutch and the fullbacks not supplementing the rest of midfield. The only times that the midfield tro of Bannan,Hutch and Lee were dominant in midfield were when Pudil and Hunt had the legs to get up and down the pitch and help them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hunt Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 32 minutes ago, steelerian said: Midfield has been our problem for many years. As are our full backs. Many like to think that our strikers arent good enough (probably true also), but the biggest problem is the lack of supply and support to our strikers. But this can be remedied by tweaking our system a little, by simply getting more men, a lot more men, further up field. Today I watched Wednesday play 433 v Preston, then I watched Liverpool play 433 v Arsenal. Wednesday and Liverpool play 433 so differently. Worlds apart. Liverpool essentially play a 253, with the full backs playing very high almost as orthodox wingers, whipping in cross after cross and supporting the play, always being an option. Their 3 strikers are actual strikers, not wingers, and get into the box at every opportunity. And their midfielders really cover box to box. Wednesday essentially play 451, with a very flat back 4, 2 very deep midfielders, 2 wingers who stay too wide, meaning a very isolated lone striker, and a 3rd central midfielder who has too much ground to cover alone. Full backs are merely watching most of the game, redundant. This clearly doesn't work. It doesn't allow us to press high, it doesn't lead to enough turnovers or chances created, it doesn't allow ball retention and recycling in the opponents half of the pitch, and more counter productively it allows us to be pressed back, rather than the other way around. Now obviously we dont have the quality that Liverpool have in the squad, or the pace, or the engines, so I'm not going to try to compare our players, but that doesn't mean we cant all shift further up field where we can be a LOT more effective, and it would definitely allow us to score more goals. Seriously, we would look a totally different team if we just watched how Liverpool played, and assumed similar positions out on the park, and shifted 20-30 yards further up. It may even turn Bannan into the player we all know he can be, but isnt being. Stranger things have happened. Oh, and finally, it would be a hell of a lot more exciting to watch. Post of the season I doff my cap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepitsteel89 Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 5 hours ago, FreshOwl said: We need to step away from the Bannan philosophy, it’s not brought the success we need and moving forward it won’t do either. Change it up Exactly, bannan is arguably our best player, technically very gifted, and he's also arguably our greatest weakness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMOwl72 Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 (edited) How many times did Westwood have the chance to throw the ball out quickly and/or keep possession to the full backs/ wingers but held onto it and ended up booting it into the other half, half the time nowhere near a Wednesday player. If I were in that midfield I would be pissed off. Very hard to blame the midfield 3 today. Basically looks like we don’t practice passing out from the back, Forward passing in training? Both full backs were awful. Odd-job a car crash and Fox - ok in defence but like a fish out of water when he has space in front of him and the chance to attack. We have talent in the middle of the park but we don’t set up to get the best out of them. We looked better with Forestieri and Nuhiu as both tried to get the ball down and play with some directiveness runnng at their opponents and causing problems. We need a manager with better vision. A management team to get the best out of the players in a system which suits them and a coach that can get the team playing to their strengths. Edited August 24, 2019 by GMOwl72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essix Blue Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 5 hours ago, SallyCinnamon said: It’s as if relying on the same midfield that failed us at Wembley over 3 years ago is still good enough... Been saying this since Wembley. Love BB, Lee and Hutch to bits, but we’re weak in there and it’s time we changed. Luongo comes with a good reputation as a ball runner, box to box. Bullen needs to get him in - who for? Well personally v QPR I’d like 442 with Luongo and Lee in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akbuk Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 We ard supposed to be playing an high tempo pressing game with 2 wingers pity we forget until we are behind 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulli_Owl Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 15 hours ago, Essix Blue said: Been saying this since Wembley. Love BB, Lee and Hutch to bits, but we’re weak in there and it’s time we changed. Not forgetting that in our best performance in the playoffs over both seasons we had Lopez as the “defensive midfielder”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nbupperthongowl Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 16 hours ago, GMOwl72 said: How many times did Westwood have the chance to throw the ball out quickly and/or keep possession to the full backs/ wingers but held onto it and ended up booting it into the other half, half the time nowhere near a Wednesday player. If I were in that midfield I would be pissed off. Very hard to blame the midfield 3 today. Basically looks like we don’t practice passing out from the back, Forward passing in training? Both full backs were awful. Odd-job a car crash and Fox - ok in defence but like a fish out of water when he has space in front of him and the chance to attack. We have talent in the middle of the park but we don’t set up to get the best out of them. We looked better with Forestieri and Nuhiu as both tried to get the ball down and play with some directiveness runnng at their opponents and causing problems. We need a manager with better vision. A management team to get the best out of the players in a system which suits them and a coach that can get the team playing to their strengths. You are correct about Westwood, against a team of spoilers we needed to get up a head of steam like the last 15 minutes, not wait around and then boot it long when they had got back into shape.....no pace in our play which fell straight into their way of playing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LittleG Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 15 hours ago, Essix Blue said: Been saying this since Wembley. Love BB, Lee and Hutch to bits, but we’re weak in there and it’s time we changed. Luongo comes with a good reputation as a ball runner, box to box. Bullen needs to get him in - who for? Well personally v QPR I’d like 442 with Luongo and Lee in the middle. I agree with Luongo coming into the side but I don't think Lee is up to it. I know he's a fans favourite but he's certainly not got back to his previous high standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LittleG Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 21 hours ago, SiJ said: If you're going to play 4-4-3, then the central midfielders have got to be getting into that final third and making things happen. Lee and Bannan were non existent today. Time for Luongo to get his chance. Not sure we could get away with 4-4-3, unless we play goalie wag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weshallovercome Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 17 hours ago, steelerian said: Midfield has been our problem for many years. As are our full backs. Many like to think that our strikers arent good enough (probably true also), but the biggest problem is the lack of supply and support to our strikers. But this can be remedied by tweaking our system a little, by simply getting more men, a lot more men, further up field. Today I watched Wednesday play 433 v Preston, then I watched Liverpool play 433 v Arsenal. Wednesday and Liverpool play 433 so differently. Worlds apart. Liverpool essentially play a 253, with the full backs playing very high almost as orthodox wingers, whipping in cross after cross and supporting the play, always being an option. Their 3 strikers are actual strikers, not wingers, and get into the box at every opportunity. And their midfielders really cover box to box. Wednesday essentially play 451, with a very flat back 4, 2 very deep midfielders, 2 wingers who stay too wide, meaning a very isolated lone striker, and a 3rd central midfielder who has too much ground to cover alone. Full backs are merely watching most of the game, redundant. This clearly doesn't work. It doesn't allow us to press high, it doesn't lead to enough turnovers or chances created, it doesn't allow ball retention and recycling in the opponents half of the pitch, and more counter productively it allows us to be pressed back, rather than the other way around. Now obviously we dont have the quality that Liverpool have in the squad, or the pace, or the engines, so I'm not going to try to compare our players, but that doesn't mean we cant all shift further up field where we can be a LOT more effective, and it would definitely allow us to score more goals. Seriously, we would look a totally different team if we just watched how Liverpool played, and assumed similar positions out on the park, and shifted 20-30 yards further up. It may even turn Bannan into the player we all know he can be, but isnt being. Stranger things have happened. Oh, and finally, it would be a hell of a lot more exciting to watch. Great post, have you got any badgers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelerian Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 3 hours ago, Weshallovercome said: Great post, have you got any badgers? Honey badgers? or Blue Peter badges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Night-Owl Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 (edited) Luongo needs bringing in from the start. His box to box play and battling qualities will prove invaluable to us as the season goes on, especially if we suffer any injuries or need to rest Lee or Hutch. We'll regret not bringing in someone to cover or compete with Hutch. I'd mix it up more depending upon the opposition, sometimes 4-3-3 high pressing/counter attack will suit certain games but some games it might suit us more to have two upfront, 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 might be best against some opposition. Edited August 25, 2019 by The Night-Owl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred mciver Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 Surely 3 - 4 - 3 with Fessi in centre? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essix Blue Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 7 hours ago, fred mciver said: Surely 3 - 4 - 3 with Fessi in centre? Out of interest who would be the 2 wing backs? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roscoe P. Coltrane Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 13 minutes ago, Essix Blue said: Out of interest who would be the 2 wing backs? BB and Hutch.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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