EXPERTS & FOOTBALL

[daveyboy66]

4 minutes ago, REDAs_biG_piECE said:

 

Condsecending and ignorant in the same sentence well done 

We had a board full of thefuckers....look how that turned out. You can't blame any wednesday fan who isn't a fan of the parasites

[Hirstys Salopettes]

Who knows who wrote it ... the author didn’t have the courtesy to put his name to it 

[Ellis Rimmer]

14 hours ago, bigthinrob said:

Been keeping a close eye on the current 'crowd control' issues at S6 and one or two things spring to mind. 

 

Obviously it's been well documented that SYP commissioned their 'independent' report regarding their failings in crowd control issues on the night of the Derby.

 

The subsequent actions following the publication of said report have led to the draconian measures which came into effect last Saturday.

 

It appears that these measures have been implemented on the findings of an 'expert' from Manchester Met. Not a 'panel' of experts who may have contradictory opinions on the matter, but a single 'expert'.

 

This set me wondering who this 'expert' may be, what his 'expert' status entails and more importantly how independent & unbiased this person is. Obviously in a court of law both the defence & prosecution barrister's will employ an 'expert' who will reflect & argue their shade of the argument. This can obviously be very lucrative for these 'experts' who frequently advertise their services for 'hire'. 

 

I looked into Manchester Met's expertise in the specific field of 'crowd control' & its causes & effects and one name who does in fact seem to be an expert, seems to dominate. I am not saying he definitely is the person concerned, but it looks almost beyond doubt, that if not him directly, it would be either one of his colleagues or his students, who would without doubt reflect his teachings.

 

Dr. Keith Still who is clearly an eminent expert in crowd control issues is clearly the senior lecturer at Manchester Met (& other establishments) and amongst his academic career also offers his services as an 'Expert witness'.

 

He has offered his services over many years, in various corners of the world. It is quite a long list of appearances from as far afield as the States, Nottingham and numerous places in between.

 

Slap bang in the middle of the list of enquiries he has acted as an expert witness is Yep, 'The Hillsborough enquiry'.

 

Now I do not in any shape or form suggest that Dr Still was not the right man for the job, his record speaks for itself. What i do question is that, in the light of the extreme nature of the Hillsborough enquiry and the traumatic evidence presented, is whether Dr Still (or one of his disciples) could feasibly present an unbiased report on present day Hillsborough when South Yorkshire Police came calling.  

 

 

Excellent work

[WindygrOWLer]

21 minutes ago, REDAs_biG_piECE said:

 

Condsecending and ignorant in the same sentence well done 

Thanks, it's a gift. Clearly your gift is talking b*llocks.

[belfast owl lad]

I Believe every top copper in the country has 'Ridden The Goat'

[Rodger Wylde]

It's cold in Chile.

[asteener1867]

Bloke next to me had his trouser leg rolled up Saturday....just sayin'

[Inspector Lestrade]

9 hours ago, REDAs_biG_piECE said:

Yes absolutely most so called experts that the establishment present to us are as crooked and corrupt as they come.

 

Often lobbied, bribed and or members of secret societies such as Freemasonry their word counts for nothing if you know how the corrupt system works.

 

Absolute crap 

[Hookowl]

6 minutes ago, Mycroft said:

 

Absolute crap 

 

Is that concluded by your expertise

[Inspector Lestrade]

Just now, Hookowl said:

 

Is that concluded by your expertise

 

Exactly

[Nero]

21 hours ago, bigthinrob said:

Been keeping a close eye on the current 'crowd control' issues at S6 and one or two things spring to mind. 

 

Obviously it's been well documented that SYP commissioned their 'independent' report regarding their failings in crowd control issues on the night of the Derby.

 

The subsequent actions following the publication of said report have led to the draconian measures which came into effect last Saturday.

 

It appears that these measures have been implemented on the findings of an 'expert' from Manchester Met. Not a 'panel' of experts who may have contradictory opinions on the matter, but a single 'expert'.

 

This set me wondering who this 'expert' may be, what his 'expert' status entails and more importantly how independent & unbiased this person is. Obviously in a court of law both the defence & prosecution barrister's will employ an 'expert' who will reflect & argue their shade of the argument. This can obviously be very lucrative for these 'experts' who frequently advertise their services for 'hire'. 

 

I looked into Manchester Met's expertise in the specific field of 'crowd control' & its causes & effects and one name who does in fact seem to be an expert, seems to dominate. I am not saying he definitely is the person concerned, but it looks almost beyond doubt, that if not him directly, it would be either one of his colleagues or his students, who would without doubt reflect his teachings.

 

Dr. Keith Still who is clearly an eminent expert in crowd control issues is clearly the senior lecturer at Manchester Met (& other establishments) and amongst his academic career also offers his services as an 'Expert witness'.

 

He has offered his services over many years, in various corners of the world. It is quite a long list of appearances from as far afield as the States, Nottingham and numerous places in between.

 

Slap bang in the middle of the list of enquiries he has acted as an expert witness is Yep, 'The Hillsborough enquiry'.

 

Now I do not in any shape or form suggest that Dr Still was not the right man for the job, his record speaks for itself. What i do question is that, in the light of the extreme nature of the Hillsborough enquiry and the traumatic evidence presented, is whether Dr Still (or one of his disciples) could feasibly present an unbiased report on present day Hillsborough when South Yorkshire Police came calling.  

 

 

I actually pointed this out about Keith Still on the original thread although I don't expect anyone to read every page!

Nevertheless I agree that there is a potential conflict of interest.

The other key thing to look at is context. The expert quoted lots of numbers about egress from the stand and what the ideal numbers were. Nowhere does he say what the average is or what Wednesdays ground was in comparison with other  local clubs.

SAG should tell us how Uniteds away end comes out using the same tests.Knowing that end I cant believe that it is a better exit route for fans.

Let's be honest SAG. None of the older grounds are going to meet the standards of today. That's the same in building regs and car tests etc etc.

[sherlyegg]

Safety is subjective, one experts opinion will differ from another expert.

All that is required is to take reasonable precautions.

By cramming exits is in my view not a reasonable precaution.

Imo, if there was no exit on that side of the ground in the first place, an expert would insist an exit must be built.

 

 

[Harrysgame]

13 hours ago, Rogerwyldesmullet said:

Great point made by the OP

Also, FWIW, interested parties might note the periodic census of university research work (REF - Research Excellence Framework) is coming up next year. It plays out very welll both institutionally and career wise for expert/researchers in Universities to show that their work has “impact” in external contexts. For Ref 2021 purposes, the more Dr Stills work or that of his minions affects ongoing crowd control arrangements at Hillsboro, the better it is for him and for MMU, 

I have met Keith Still a number of times over the years for work purposes and have seen the depth of the work he undertakes,. The work always looked well thought out and professional. In fairness the majority was to do with crowd control in the middle east regions. But I guess the dynamics are the same.

 

The approach SYP have taken does seem to be a sledgehammer to crack a nut and if a report is commissioned I guess you are then duty bound to find something and make suggestions based on a worse case scenario. 

I guess that  any report with a safety slant will always try to eliminate any risk just in case. Would not look good on any academic if a report said nothing needs doing and then it happens.

 

What next for SAG ban hot drinks inside the ground in case you are jostled and get scolded.

 

[bigthinrob]

2 hours ago, Harrysgame said:

I have met Keith Still a number of times over the years for work purposes and have seen the depth of the work he undertakes,. The work always looked well thought out and professional. In fairness the majority was to do with crowd control in the middle east regions. But I guess the dynamics are the same.

 

The approach SYP have taken does seem to be a sledgehammer to crack a nut and if a report is commissioned I guess you are then duty bound to find something and make suggestions based on a worse case scenario. 

I guess that  any report with a safety slant will always try to eliminate any risk just in case. Would not look good on any academic if a report said nothing needs doing and then it happens.

 

What next for SAG ban hot drinks inside the ground in case you are jostled and get scolded.

 

I don’t doubt his credentials & was at pains to point this out, but I still maintain there was never going to be an unbiased conclusion re current events at S6 following his involvement with the ‘Hillsborough enquiry’. 

 

He was clearly hired in the knowledge he would reach the conclusions SYP wanted to hear.

 

I also still await, as I’m sure all the other interested parties do, (both Wednesday & United) the enquiry we were ACTUALLY promised in relation to what we can politely only refer to as ‘over robust policing’ & the usual generic incompetence we have come to expect.

 

As the old saying goes, I won’t be holding my breath!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[S36 OWL]

13 minutes ago, bigthinrob said:

I don’t doubt his credentials & was at pains to point this out, but I still maintain there was never going to be an unbiased conclusion re current events at S6 following his involvement with the ‘Hillsborough enquiry’. 

 

He was clearly hired in the knowledge he would reach the conclusions SYP wanted to hear.

 

I also still await, as I’m sure all the other interested parties do, (both Wednesday & United) the enquiry we were ACTUALLY promised in relation to what we can politely only refer to as ‘over robust policing’ & the usual generic incompetence we have come to expect.

 

As the old saying goes, I won’t be holding my breath!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The fact they paid him to do the report should tell you how the report will turn out. 

[Costello 77]

16 minutes ago, bigthinrob said:

I don’t doubt his credentials & was at pains to point this out, but I still maintain there was never going to be an unbiased conclusion re current events at S6 following his involvement with the ‘Hillsborough enquiry’. 

 

He was clearly hired in the knowledge he would reach the conclusions SYP wanted to hear.

 

I also still await, as I’m sure all the other interested parties do, (both Wednesday & United) the enquiry we were ACTUALLY promised in relation to what we can politely only refer to as ‘over robust policing’ & the usual generic incompetence we have come to expect.

 

As the old saying goes, I won’t be holding my breath!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Glad you're back in the room Rob...

[Harrysgame]

54 minutes ago, bigthinrob said:

I don’t doubt his credentials & was at pains to point this out, but I still maintain there was never going to be an unbiased conclusion re current events at S6 following his involvement with the ‘Hillsborough enquiry’. 

 

He was clearly hired in the knowledge he would reach the conclusions SYP wanted to hear.

 

I also still await, as I’m sure all the other interested parties do, (both Wednesday & United) the enquiry we were ACTUALLY promised in relation to what we can politely only refer to as ‘over robust policing’ & the usual generic incompetence we have come to expect.

 

As the old saying goes, I won’t be holding my breath!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

No wasnt defending him. And agree. Any report would naturally have a slant that will always recommend this and that. If an expert ever wrote a commissioned report which said no all is fine no suggestions to make etc. They would not be asked to do another one, they are duty bound to make some recomendations to justify their fee.

Would love to see an independent report into syp and crowd control.