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Getting the best out of Rhodes


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Guest Kagoshimaowl
1 hour ago, Tamworthowl said:

I'm one of those that think Rhodes has been harshly judged at Wednesday. With the right service, he'll thrive. With Harris and Murphy we now have the pace out wide (and hopefully, delivery) that should bring the best out of Rhodes. 

I'm sure the experts will put me right, but Rhodes operates best with a partner. I don't see him effective as a lone striker. Fletcher occupies the big centre half, creating space for Rhodes and the wide man to exploit.

 

So how do we set up to get the best out of Rhodes (I think the same analysis applies to Winnall too)?

 

Up front: Fletcher and Rhodes

Width, proving the ammo: Harris and Reach/Murphy

 

So that leaves two in midfield. I can't help thinking, that Harris and Murphy would leave us a bit light. So three at the back to allow three in the middle.

 

Midfield: three from Hutch, Luongo, Bannan, Lee.

Back three: Borner, Lees, Iorfa.

 

But three at the back? Didn't work under Jos, but then little did. Whilst 4-3-3 (4-5-1) keeps working, I can't see us reverting to a back three, and there won't be a starting place for Rhodes. So we'll continue to be disappointed.

So Murphy and Harris are wing backs? Are you high?

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7 minutes ago, Hougoumont said:

The thing is that StudentOwl was correct with his ball in net opinion...but it wasn't very well thought out as he was having a pop at Rhodes for not doing just that in his time at Wednesday, but there are reasons for that. We have to deal with reality and the fact is that Rhodes is a Wednesday player who has proved to be very good at "kicking the ball into other teams nets" over a long period and with different teams. So surely the answer is to create a system whereby he can do that for us. It's certainly not to chuck the baby out with the bath water.

No I wasn't, please don't put words in my mouth.

See this post in another thread:

Where I give a longer response, which when you read I'm sure you'll realise has absolutely no popping at Rhodes whatsoever, quite the opposite...  I believe he can succeed pretty well as a lone striker with a small amount of adapation to his own personal game in conjunction with the personnel we now have in the squad.

Edited by StudentOwl
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40 minutes ago, tarn owl said:

Can we just actually see how Rhodes is once on the pitch. He has been away so long and so it is hard to judge. But we have just signed wingers and centre midfielders. We may play 4-3-3/4-5-1 all season. If so then Fletch, Winnall, Rhodes and Nuhiu are all competing for the same slot up top. If Fletch stays fit i don't see Rhodes playing often and he may struggle to make the bench in front of Nuhiu, Winnall. If Kieran Lee and Hutch stay fit, i think we'll stick with 4-3-3. Which basically means Rhodes is a back up. I think we may end up debating how to get the best out of a player who plays some league cup games and comes on in 85th minute for Fletch often, that's it. I would be as happy as anyone else if suddenly the old 20 goal a season Rhodes returns from the past, i just don't see it, i think he should have gone out on loan or being sold. sorry.

Winnall is in front of no one.Needs to be loaned out. Wont get a game here.

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1 minute ago, StudentOwl said:

No I wasn't, please don't put words in my mouth.

See this post in another thread:

Where I give a longer response, which when you read I'm sure you'll realise has absolutely no popping at Rhodes whatsoever, quite the opposite...  I believe he can succeed pretty well as a lone striker with a small amount of adapation to his own personal game. 

Fair enough, but when Rhodes has been scoring for fun it's mostly been in a front two with quality wingers providing him. So why would you want him to adapt his game. You wouldn't buy a  Ferrari to go rallying or a Subaru to go track racing would you?

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13 minutes ago, York_Owl said:

You can't play a 3-3-4 tho.

 

We should stick with 4-3-3 as that is the formation best suited to our squad and our key players.  Rhodes will have to play the central striker role coming off the bench.

 

As a plan B we could switch to a 3-5-2 which gives us three central midfielders and a partner for Rhodes up front but our wingers become redundant in this system. 

 

Formations, it's all just numbers.

3-3-4 with two of the four being wingers, wouldn't happen. It'll be 3-5-2 with the wide midfielders being on the front foot looking to run forward rather than a Palmer/Iorfa type being on the back foot looking mainly behind them. 

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50 minutes ago, tarn owl said:

Can we just actually see how Rhodes is once on the pitch. He has been away so long and so it is hard to judge. But we have just signed wingers and centre midfielders. We may play 4-3-3/4-5-1 all season. If so then Fletch, Winnall, Rhodes and Nuhiu are all competing for the same slot up top. If Fletch stays fit i don't see Rhodes playing often and he may struggle to make the bench in front of Nuhiu, Winnall. If Kieran Lee and Hutch stay fit, i think we'll stick with 4-3-3. Which basically means Rhodes is a back up. I think we may end up debating how to get the best out of a player who plays some league cup games and comes on in 85th minute for Fletch often, that's it. I would be as happy as anyone else if suddenly the old 20 goal a season Rhodes returns from the past, i just don't see it, i think he should have gone out on loan or being sold. sorry.

Comedy gold lol

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7 minutes ago, Hougoumont said:

Fair enough, but when Rhodes has been scoring for fun it's mostly been in a front two with quality wingers providing him. So why would you want him to adapt his game. You wouldn't buy a  Ferrari to go rallying or a Subaru to go track racing would you?

For the same reasons I've given in that post

 

-He's a top Championship striker, but 4-4-2 poachers have lost their efficacy the last few years. Top Championship players adapt their game, it's time for JR to do that, and I believe he's good enough to

-He's good at retaining possession, albeit by keeping it simple, and he's not short. Put on a few lbs and get a little bit more aggressive, and he's basically there already with his attributes to make it as a lone striker.

-Most importantly, 4-3-3 is best for the personnel we have in the other 10 positions on the pitch. 4-4-2 means Harris has a starting position further back... 4-3-3 and he can break the offside trap. That forces opponents to drop deeper, gives lone striker more space and less physical pressure. JR in 4-3-3 with our slower wingers over last few years is always going to be comparatively worse to JR flanked by quick players. 4-3-3 unleashes Bannan and Lee, enabling them to get up and support more readily. 4-3-3 also gives us the strongest spine and complements our midfielders better. I think we'll do better in that shape than any other. If it's a choice between 4-4-2 JR scores 18 and we concede 50 or 4-3-3 JR scores 10 and we concede 40, I choose 4-3-3.

Edited by StudentOwl
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Just now, peacock1961 said:

You can still have a front 2 of fletcher Rhodes in a 433, it just means 1 winger who can switch sides. Without the ball the winger should be on the side of their strongest full backs. Just means you can't revert to 451 so in effect it's a home system. 

You can, Bruce used Kodija in such a role at Villa. With the best will in the world though, can you see Rhodes making those out to in runs needed when playing that way?

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2 minutes ago, StudentOwl said:

For the same reasons I've given in that post

 

-He's a top Championship striker, but 4-4-2 poachers have lost their efficacy the last few years. Top Championship players adapt their game, it's time for JR to do that, and I believe he's good enough to

-He's good at retaining possession, albeit by keeping it simple. Put on a few lbs and get a little bit more aggressive, and he's basically there already with his attributes

-Most importantly, 4-3-3 is best for the personnel we have in the other 10 positions on the pitch. 4-4-2 means Harris has a starting position further back... 4-3-3 and he can break the offside trap. That forces opponents to drop deeper, gives lone striker more space and less physical pressure. JR in 4-3-3 with our slower wingers over last few years is always going to be comparatively worse to JR flanked by quick players. 4-3-3 unleashes Bannan and Lee, enabling them to get up and support more readily. 4-3-3 also gives us the strongest spine and complements our midfielders better. I think we'll do better in that shape than any other. If it's a choice between 4-4-2 JR scores 18 and we concede 50 or 4-3-3 JR scores 10 and we concede 40, I choose 4-3-3.

I understand what you are saying with regards the formation, but Rhodes will never be the player you describe. He's a finisher, pure and simple. He has the knack of being in the right place at the right  time...so  you either play to his strengths or play someone else. That's the reality.

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Rhodes will get plenty of gametime this season with us, as I'm sure Nuhiu and Winnall will too. Fletcher isn't going to play every minute of every game - last season he was a warrior, he seemed to want to play every game and played a lot! But only started 32 games of 46, of those 32 he was substituted off 24 times. Even adding in his substitute appearances he only totaled 2,500 minutes of championship football last term which is about 28 full games. So even if we do play one and only one upfront (which I'm sure we will play more than one at various stages) that still leaves circa 18 full games worth of minutes for our other forwards to full.

 

I'd guess that Fletcher needs to be managed slightly better this term, he's not getting younger and get's through a hell of a lot of work so I'm expecting a lot of support from our other three strikers and even Fessi from time to time too.

 

Rhodes can play as a sole striker, he did it last term for Norwich. He can also play as a pair in a 442. I'd be shocked if he doesn't get at least similar minutes and goals that he got last term at Norwich. In fact I think he'll score more than Fletcher this year for us, albeit doing less work and playing in easier games.   

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Guest Kagoshimaowl
20 minutes ago, Tamworthowl said:

 

Wing forwards.

Wide attackers.

 

What makes you think I want them at the back?

Inevitably that will happen with your formation when you are defending. Teams would just play 4-3-3 against us and have a field day down the sides. It’s a Fifa video game formation not realistic at all!

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Guest Kagoshimaowl
2 minutes ago, Philb125 said:

Rhodes will get plenty of gametime this season with us, as I'm sure Nuhiu and Winnall will too. Fletcher isn't going to play every minute of every game - last season he was a warrior, he seemed to want to play every game and played a lot! But only started 32 games of 46, of those 32 he was substituted off 24 times. Even adding in his substitute appearances he only totaled 2,500 minutes of championship football last term which is about 28 full games. So even if we do play one and only one upfront (which I'm sure we will play more than one at various stages) that still leaves circa 18 full games worth of minutes for our other forwards to full.

 

I'd guess that Fletcher needs to be managed slightly better this term, he's not getting younger and get's through a hell of a lot of work so I'm expecting a lot of support from our other three strikers and even Fessi from time to time too.

 

Rhodes can play as a sole striker, he did it last term for Norwich. He can also play as a pair in a 442. I'd be shocked if he doesn't get at least similar minutes and goals that he got last term at Norwich. In fact I think he'll score more than Fletcher this year for us, albeit doing less work and playing in easier games.   

Score more than Fletcher.  Ha ha ha! Rhodes is poo!

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Just now, Kagoshimaowl said:

Score more than Fletcher.  Ha ha ha! Rhodes is poo!

 

Controversial I know but I think he'll be scoring quite freely against the lessor teams, where he may be started to give Fletch a rest. If we are playing against Fulham - I wouldn't want Rhodes up top, that Fletch all day long. If we are playing Luton, Charlton etc. I'd actually prefer 2 up top but would expect these type of games is where we may rest Fletch and where I think the others will fill their boots so to say! 

 

Rhodes is a typical flat track bully for me, not the worst quality - we have struggled to put these lessor teams away for years. Maybe with him up top we can convert the chances we create vs them.  

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1 minute ago, Philb125 said:

 

Controversial I know but I think he'll be scoring quite freely against the lessor teams, where he may be started to give Fletch a rest. If we are playing against Fulham - I wouldn't want Rhodes up top, that Fletch all day long. If we are playing Luton, Charlton etc. I'd actually prefer 2 up top but would expect these type of games is where we may rest Fletch and where I think the others will fill their boots so to say! 

 

Rhodes is a typical flat track bully for me, not the worst quality - we have struggled to put these lessor teams away for years. Maybe with him up top we can convert the chances we create vs them.  

Maybe, although against one of the so called poorer sides last week, two strikers were called on ahead of him.  Have to say, Reading are a team who really have had an excellent transfer window, and if they click, they may not be at the bottom for long

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2 hours ago, gurujuan said:

This, the role for Rhodes will be a similar one he had at Norwich, from the bench. If the game against Bury is rescheduled, then he may play in that  Those were the type of games he would start for Norwich

 

Exactly 

 

As it stands him and Winnall are fighting for the same place on the bench 

 

It's up to them when they get a chance to take it 

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1 minute ago, gurujuan said:

Maybe, although against one of the so called poorer sides last week, two strikers were called on ahead of him.  Have to say, Reading are a team who really have had an excellent transfer window, and if they click, they may not be at the bottom for long

 

Did you listen to the post match commentary Guru?

 

Fessi was brought on Left Wing, Jaoa was brought on Right Wing, Rhodes was about to come on as striker when Westwood got sent off. Jaoa only went central when we were down to ten men. Is Rhodes the man to replace the wide players? Not if they are expected to stay as wide players no, is he the man to replace the central striker or join the central striker? Absolutely, not just my opinion but that of Lee Bullan and Farke based on Rhodes appearing in excess of 30 times last year for the BEST team in the division.

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5 minutes ago, Philb125 said:

 

Did you listen to the post match commentary Guru?

 

Fessi was brought on Left Wing, Jaoa was brought on Right Wing, Rhodes was about to come on as striker when Westwood got sent off. Jaoa only went central when we were down to ten men. Is Rhodes the man to replace the wide players? Not if they are expected to stay as wide players no, is he the man to replace the central striker or join the central striker? Absolutely, not just my opinion but that of Lee Bullan and Farke based on Rhodes appearing in excess of 30 times last year for the BEST team in the division.

No, I didn’t hear it, I was at the game, but now you’ve explained the scenario, I can see the logic in that That’s why it’s so important that you can have players like Forestieri and Joao, who can stretch the opposition in that situation. Which is why I’m a little disappointed that we let Joao go, without bringing in a similar replacement

Edited by gurujuan
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