Is it time to re-evaluate Steve Burtenshaw?

[Bearwood Owl1]

4 minutes ago, Utah Owl said:

Even so strange timing, by this time Burtenshaw was getting better results, and Ashurst got off to a shocking start. The fact that it went down to the final game of the season was a complete embarrassment.

 

It was only by virtue of the fact that we won the last 5 at home that we stopped up at all and in the first game of that run we had to rely on an 86th minute OG from Colchester to save us, in front of less than 7,000 fans. We worshipped Accurst as a saviour at the time, but in retrospect I'm not sure that Burtenshaw would have been as bad or worse.

Which brings me back to where I started. It's 45 years ago now, so there can be a bit of objective distance. Maybe it's time to re-evaluate SB (even if only a little!)

[Alfie Tupper]

On 10/06/2019 at 18:01, Bearwood Owl1 said:

Was told that there was 'sack the board' chants when he went. Though that happened most weeks I guess :)

 

Good coach, good bloke, failed as manager I think will be the argument.

For most of the first home match after the sacking, the Kop chanted for Burtenshaw and against McGee (something about his parentage) - I was only 15 and I've often wondered since what they were thinking, but that's what happened.    

 

"Sack the board" chants most weeks?  I'm less sure about this, but I don't think so.  I think we were remarkably supportive, looking back.   Maybe they were more deferential times, there was no social media (even the radio 'phone-in was yet to be invented), and the local papers were more or less supportive of the club (perhaps they had a cosy relationship or thought that positive stories sell papers - I don't know).  Obviously the majority of fans had simply stopped going - perhaps only the more upbeat remained - which could be why some people have a rose tinted view of the era (just idle speculation).

 

Steve Burtenshaw was probably appointed with a brief to re-build the club from the bottom up, and his work with the youth side of it is well acknowledged - David Grant, Mark Smith, John Pearson and Mel Sterland all came through the youth set up.  I think that he also tried to produce a side playing attractive, passing, football - maybe that's why some people liked him.  Of course a passing side will usually lose out to a "more robust" side, unless the players are significantly better, and ours definitely were not - hence the results (and there's nothing attractive about getting battered every week).  Bert McGee was said to be a tough character, and his appointment of Ashurst, and later Charlton, reflects this - we needed to kick our way out of division three.

 

Just to end my ramble (guess who's off sick today), it amused me when, a few years later, Martin Peters was appointed manager of United and told the press that  his old England colleague Jack, who was by then our manager, had called him to say, "you have to kick your way out of the third division".  Peters responded by insisting, "we're going to play our way out", which of course they did - into division 4!  

[asteener1867]

Away game at somewhere or other when Len ashurst was manager...getting hammered...Wednesday fan

"we ought to take a centre half off and put one of Ashursts eyebrows on..................."

[Bearwood Owl1]

7 hours ago, Alfie Tupper said:

For most of the first home match after the sacking, the Kop chanted for Burtenshaw and against McGee (something about his parentage) - I was only 15 and I've often wondered since what they were thinking, but that's what happened.    

 

"Sack the board" chants most weeks?  I'm less sure about this, but I don't think so.  I think we were remarkably supportive, looking back.   Maybe they were more deferential times, there was no social media (even the radio 'phone-in was yet to be invented), and the local papers were more or less supportive of the club (perhaps they had a cosy relationship or thought that positive stories sell papers - I don't know).  Obviously the majority of fans had simply stopped going - perhaps only the more upbeat remained - which could be why some people have a rose tinted view of the era (just idle speculation).

 

Steve Burtenshaw was probably appointed with a brief to re-build the club from the bottom up, and his work with the youth side of it is well acknowledged - David Grant, Mark Smith, John Pearson and Mel Sterland all came through the youth set up.  I think that he also tried to produce a side playing attractive, passing, football - maybe that's why some people liked him.  Of course a passing side will usually lose out to a "more robust" side, unless the players are significantly better, and ours definitely were not - hence the results (and there's nothing attractive about getting battered every week).  Bert McGee was said to be a tough character, and his appointment of Ashurst, and later Charlton, reflects this - we needed to kick our way out of division three.

 

Just to end my ramble (guess who's off sick today), it amused me when, a few years later, Martin Peters was appointed manager of United and told the press that  his old England colleague Jack, who was by then our manager, had called him to say, "you have to kick your way out of the third division".  Peters responded by insisting, "we're going to play our way out", which of course they did - into division 4!  

Yes I guess most weeks might be pushing it - but the fans weren't averse to having a go -  a few cushion throwing incidents a nd previous chairman Sir Andrew Stephen going to game via taxi as fed up of having his car scratched just two examples.

 

Agree on the wider points about SB. Two ex players I've interviewed really rated him. So he had something. I think I'll need to acknowledge the counter argument, but accept that he basically failed when I finish writing this bit up.

[Flat Owl]

I have re-evaluated Steve Burtenshaw.

 

 

 

 

 

....and my conclusion again is that he was still an appalling football manager.

[Bearwood Owl1]

I have SB's address and have written to him. Into his 80s now, but I'd be very interested to hear what his views of his time at S6 are. Fingers crossed.

[matthefish2002]

Steve Burtenshaw was before my time but I get the impression he was similar to Alan Irvine.
Good coach and well liked by those inside the game but hopeless when he was a manager.

[torryowl]

11 hours ago, matthefish2002 said:

Steve Burtenshaw was before my time but I get the impression he was similar to Alan Irvine.
Good coach and well liked by those inside the game but hopeless when he was a manager.

.obviously  burtenshaw  was a good coach the positions at clubs like arsenal,everton QPR  tell us that but then you ask why if he was so good at coaching that his team could only score 3 goals in 20 odd games and play so abysmally  …..I don't think the players he had  were as bad as that record suggests and yet he couldn't get them to play which you'd think a good coach could do . ….  

[legendaryswan]

Very good coach,but hopeless manager,he was lacking in most areas,tactics,formation,organisation,transfer market,motivation.

The job was way outside his scope to be fair,it needed a wily experienced fox,not some managerial newbie,it was a difficult job,the board had dug us into a hole of debt and wouldnt put thier money in to sort out their previous mistakes and just sat on thier wallets as we hurtled toward 3rd tier football at alarming speed.

[Bearwood Owl1]

The reasons for our failures were multiple under Dooley, Burtenshaw then Ashurst in the mid 70s. Ashurst was wily but still only just kept us in D3 for example. I'm not necessarily defending SB but there are common factors across the period of decline - money, declining g attendances,  boardroom squabbles, sale of key players, injuries and illness. All those troubled SB's team. 

 

Excellent coach, not so good manager, working in hugely difficult circumstances is my general conclusion. Several tales of him being a nice guy as well (not that would help his management of course).

[Colin Dobson]

Awful times for the club - the worst in fact! Looking back on it the club just disintegrated - crazy decision to appoint him in the first place! After survival by the narrowest of margins in 1974 the following two seasons were a complete nightmare - thought we'd never come back to be honest(a bit like now I suppose!).

[Bearwood Owl1]

3 hours ago, Colin Dobson said:

Awful times for the club - the worst in fact! Looking back on it the club just disintegrated - crazy decision to appoint him in the first place! After survival by the narrowest of margins in 1974 the following two seasons were a complete nightmare - thought we'd never come back to be honest(a bit like now I suppose!).

 

I've got a book coming out on the period next year - hence me keeping popping up on here asking questions! The conclusions to the book are proving one of the most difficult sections to write. Behind the scenes, there were changes which eventually bore fruit. On the pitch it was often horrendous. SB's time in charge saw the worst of all that. And yet... there's a certain fondness for the time from some at least. I'm stewing on it all for a while before writing it up :)

[Colin Dobson]

That would be of interest Bearwood! I remember Des Lynam on Sports Report saying "sympathy wells up for Sheffield Wednesday after today's result( a home defeat to Hereford perhaps - can't quite remember). Those car crash days do bring back memories I agree(when were we going to turn things round? - let's be honest Wednesday's 9 years in Division 3 were unifirmly pretty grim despite three promotions) - after the Catterick & Buckingham days of ten years earlier I couldn't believe we could sink so low!!!

[Utah Owl]

On 21/08/2019 at 17:42, JimmyMaC said:

Course its true,it was the side burtenshaw built,he spaffed his entire transfer budget on harvey from everton the previous season,we were at the bottom end of the table most of his time in charge,that season included,we finished august in 22nd,and september we climbed from 19th to 16th by virtue of the point we got at palace,thanks to Potts.

Had Burtenshaw stayed that season,wed have been in division 4,Ashurst did well to steer us clear,but only just,he then had the unenviable task of unpicking burtenshaws legacy on a paper thin budget.

We even had to suffer going out of the league cup at home to bloody darlington ffs after a 2-0 lead from the first leg!

http://adrianbullock.com/swfc/stats/lg1975.htm

 

Check the squad out for that year. Vast majority of it was on the books before Burtenshaw came. It was essentially Dooley's squad because we hardly signed any bugger when SB came in due to having no money!

[Bearwood Owl1]

On 28/09/2019 at 17:45, Colin Dobson said:

That would be of interest Bearwood! I remember Des Lynam on Sports Report saying "sympathy wells up for Sheffield Wednesday after today's result( a home defeat to Hereford perhaps - can't quite remember). Those car crash days do bring back memories I agree(when were we going to turn things round? - let's be honest Wednesday's 9 years in Division 3 were unifirmly pretty grim despite three promotions) - after the Catterick & Buckingham days of ten years earlier I couldn't believe we could sink so low!!!

Hope you like it when it's out. Published next Spring via Vertical Editions - same people who did Lee Bullen and Carlton Palmer's books. Should be available in the megastore and in all good bookshops! It aims to reflect the fond memories that some have of the time, while not skirting over how truly dreadful some of it was. Couple of interviews to complete - one of which is hopefully with Steve Burtenshaw if his health is up to it - then lots of editing and proofreading before it's fit for the world to see!

[Bearwood Owl1]

20 hours ago, Utah Owl said:

http://adrianbullock.com/swfc/stats/lg1975.htm

 

Check the squad out for that year. Vast majority of it was on the books before Burtenshaw came. It was essentially Dooley's squad because we hardly signed any bugger when SB came in due to having no money!

I agree. Tommy Craig had left by Christmas, Eric McMordie couldn't be persuaded to stay. Joicey and particularly Prendergast were injured. Only signings really were Colin Harvey and Phil Henson. Lots of youth. Regardless of SB's skills as a manager (or not) - surely anyone would have struggled in those circumstances?

[torryowl]

On 29/09/2019 at 19:55, Bearwood Owl1 said:

I agree. Tommy Craig had left by Christmas, Eric McMordie couldn't be persuaded to stay. Joicey and particularly Prendergast were injured. Only signings really were Colin Harvey and Phil Henson. Lots of youth. Regardless of SB's skills as a manager (or not) - surely anyone would have struggled in those circumstances?

Struggled certainly but not to the extent of scoring 3 goals in 20 odd matches.....halfway thrust a run like that you either sack the manager or back him to turn it round .the board backed him and he failed miserably. Quite how he kept the job for the next season is one of life's mysteries. 

[Bearwood Owl1]

14 hours ago, torryowl said:

Struggled certainly but not to the extent of scoring 3 goals in 20 odd matches.....halfway thrust a run like that you either sack the manager or back him to turn it round .the board backed him and he failed miserably. Quite how he kept the job for the next season is one of life's mysteries. 

Now that is a mystery! 

[Bearwood Owl1]

19 hours ago, JimmyMaC said:

 quit management after relegating QPR whod been one of the contenders for PROMOTION the prior season.

He even admitted himself after QPRs relegation,"Im not cut out for management" no sheet sherlock,he wasnt he was hopeless

I wonder if that quote's available somewhere?  Interesting if so. 

[Bearwood Owl1]

6 hours ago, JimmyMaC said:

From memory it was the former QPR chairman that sold out due to ill health,heart attack? then later bought out Portsmouth that relayed SBs parting shot after he was relieved of the hot seat,was his name Gregory?

Thanks :) I'll have a hunt around for it from the clues!