Forestieri Charged

[dontCallMeOwlCallYou]

4 minutes ago, akbuk said:

Civil law which requires a lower burden of proof

Ah l see, so its more prove yourself innocent in civil law? As opposed to they must find you guilty beyond doubt?

Edited June 6, 2019 by dontCallMeOwlCallYou

[cowl]

17 minutes ago, We are all Wednesday said:

As others have said, it’s about the balance of probability in a civil case. Louis Theroux produces a documentary on how civil cases are used in American Universities when a defendant has been found not guilty in a sexual abuse claim. Seems like a blunt instrument but there was cases when it appeared like justice was done as a result.

 

I support our great club and all our players but if any of them are racist and there is a level of certainty then they need to be reprimanded regardless of the fact that they play for SWFC.

 

If people want to question what evidence they have then fine but I don’t like it when people defend potential behaviour like that alleged just because they play for a certain team. It stinks. SUFC did it with Ched Evans and I didn’t like it then. Question the process and evidence fine but don’t say someone is innocent just because they play for your team.

 

I do hope FF is innocent and don’t want him to miss games for him and us but that is different.

 

So you think that if FF is found not to be innocent of what he's being charged with then it would automatically make him a racist, and not merely someone who said something they shouldn't have in the heat of the moment?

 

Trying to establish an extreme character trait based on one incident is precisely why I hope the club back FF to the hilt.

Edited June 6, 2019 by cowl

[Hirstys Salopettes]

2 hours ago, AgileBeastt said:

 

2 hours ago, AgileBeastt said:

 

Forestieri has until 14 June 2019 to respond to the charge.

 

 

The easiest response in the world ... NOT GUILTY ... as found in a court of law.

 

Unless of course he called Kyrian Pearce a snowflake. 

 

Wonder how the FA’s getting on reviewed the conclusive evidence of Jacob Mellis two footing Tom Lees in the chest after full time ... 

[room0035]

40 minutes ago, Whitechapel Owl said:

 

In all fairness how could you possibly know what was said? It's both their words against each other. 

 

Also,  just because he was found not guilty in court isn't "proof" he has or hasn't done anything. It simply means that in court they were unable to prove he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. 

 

Like someone else mentioned the FA operate on the balance of probability, so we could easily see the same result as what happened with John Terry. 

The FA have proved time and again they don't have a clue what they are doing.

 

Presumably the 3 match ban he has already served will also be forgotten as well.

 

In a court of law it was proved what Fessi said, no one other than the player heard anything racist.

 

The words kangaroo court spring to mind.

[ChinaOwl]

4 minutes ago, akbuk said:

Civil law which requires a lower burden of proof

 

But, in this instance, it would be neither. It is a rule that they are enforcing, not a law. A rule that only exists in their own rule book. I guess Forestieri's legal team can possibly challenge it on employment legislation (that he is being victimised on a disciplinary issue for which no firm evidence exists).

[Quist]

1 hour ago, OxonOwl said:

It is more the case that the EFL has a lower burden of proof required so that even though there was insufficient evidence for him to be guilty of a criminal charge there may be enough for the EFL.

 

It is similar with civil actions which can be carried out following failure to convict under criminal law.

 

 

Yes a lower burden of proof. But when there is no evidence at all how is that proving anything. If evidence is reviewed there are clear incidents mainly by Mansfield players against Wednesday players. Some of these had done nothing yet were being mistreated. It is wrong to be selective, this looks to be a case of having it in for player or Wednesday. Also why the delay, why has it taken so long? The police investigation was shocking in only one side were interviewed and case was rightly thrown out. This does not enhance footballs reputation it makes it worse. Wednesday have a variety of races in team and had a black manager at the time of incident so could hardly said not to be inclusive.

[RichSheffWeds]

Any potential sale value over the summer just gone further down the toilet. 

[We are all Wednesday]

6 minutes ago, cowl said:

 

So you think that if FF is found not to be innocent of what he's being charged with then it would automatically make him a racist, and not merely someone who said something they shouldn't have in the heat of the moment?

 

Trying to establish an extreme character trait based on one incident is precisely why I hope the club back FF to the hilt.

Maybe not a great use of language... “use racial slurs”. The reprimand is or at least should be about this but to label them as racist the end. Whether this was the case and whether this is the right way of determining it can be debated but my general point stands.

[The Wall]

2 hours ago, milanowl said:

That said, it seemed to come down only to one guy's word against another so it's a really difficult one for the FA either way.

 

Not difficult for me, one kid says he called me a nasty name, other one says no I didn't. No case to answer. 

 

In fact, if anything, this actually harms the anti racism cause

[Big Jack]

The bizarre rulings by the FA , means if you are alleged to  say something to a fellow professional that is racist and the alleged victim reports it.

 

Then you will be charged  by the FA whether your guilty or not regardless if it is your word against another.

 

Think the FA feeling their using zero tolerance against racism while ignoring the institutional racism that exists throughout the game.

[Bouncing Owl]

Completely ridiculous. I hope the FA have got compelling evidence which wasn’t available at court? Otherwise, I hope we take them to court for slander and defamation of character. 

 

I know FF doesn’t help himself with his theatrics etc but the amount of ridiculous refereeing decisions that have gone against him over the years is quite frankly unbelievable. It’s like a witch hunt.

 

[Swiss Toni]

Charge!

[ChinaOwl]

Just now, Bouncing Owl said:

Completely ridiculous. I hope the FA have got compelling evidence which wasn’t available at court? Otherwise, I hope we take them to court for slander and defamation of character. 

 

 

 

 

It has nothing to do with the court case. Courts administer law, this is a disciplinary matter based on the FA's own rule book. Usually there will be an appeal procedure or it may even be dropped before any disciplinary hearing. Like any employee who feels that they are being unfairly treated in disciplinary proceedings, Forestieri will also have the option of challenging the findings on an employment rights basis.

[Whitechapel Owl]

3 minutes ago, Big Jack said:

The bizarre rulings by the FA , means if you are alleged to  say something to a fellow professional that is racist and the alleged victim reports it.

 

Then you will be charged  by the FA whether your guilty or not regardless if it is your word against another.

 

Think the FA feeling their using zero tolerance against racism while ignoring the institutional racism that exists throughout the game.

 

But they don't charge everyone who is accused though, they investigate and then bring charges if they feel there is a case to be answered. 

 

I should hope they do have zero tolerance towards racism, who on earth would disagree with that? 

 

Even if they do ignore the institutional racism that's hardly a reason to ignore incidents such as this is it, that's another problem that needs addressing as well. 

[Hirstys Salopettes]

I presume the FA have already undertaken a thorough investigation of events before making such a charge ... for example https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/feb/21/roberto-firmino-cleared-racism-allegations 

 

they must have new witnesses because flicker didn’t hear anything, the referee didn’t hear anything (or even mention it in his report) nor did any Mansfield player declare under oath that they heard anything ... perhaps a video illustrating FFs mouth has appeared and lip reading linguistic experts have deemed the original allegations to be true 

 

for the avoidance of doubt I’m being highly sarcastic 

[Dronfield Blue]

2 hours ago, Kanye West said:

How can the FA charge him when he was found not guilty?

 

Because the FA are above the law.

[ChinaOwl]

1 minute ago, Dronfield Blue said:

 

Because the FA are above the law.

 

It is a normal occurrence like the Stokes/Hale thing in cricket. The courts may have dropped charges but they were still charged on a disciplinary breach. Forestieri is not unique on this one. The only puzzle is what additional evidence the FA have to corroborate the allegation made.

[Guest gizowl]

20 minutes ago, RichSheffWeds said:

Any potential sale value over the summer just gone further down the toilet. 

Well that's one positive, cause I don't want him sold, rather watch him than any of our other strikers, if you want to raise money, Winnall, Rhodes Joao, Van Aken, Pelupessy first. 

[Hirstys Salopettes]

I look forward to the FA explaining that they had followed such a process prior to charging FF ... 

 

The Football Association has exonerated Roberto Firmino of racially abusing the Everton defender Mason Holgate following a lengthy investigation into the Liverpool striker’s conduct during the FA Cup tie between the Merseyside rivals at Anfield.

 

Holgate accused Firmino of using what the FA described as a “discriminatory term” when the pair clashed in Liverpool’s third-round victory on 5 January. The FA opened an investigation the following day and almost seven weeks later – having interviewed 12 players, the referee Bobby Madley, the fourth official Jon Moss and consulted two Portuguese lip-reading experts – announced on Wednesday that there is insufficient evidence to charge the Brazil international with any offence.

 

In a statement, the FA said it was satisfied that “the allegation was made in absolute good faith by Holgate and that there is no suggestion of this being an intentionally false or malicious allegation”. But it found no evidence, either through witness statements or consulting unseen footage of the row that erupted after Holgate had pushed Firmino over the advertising hoardings, to support the Everton defender’s claim that he had been racially abused.

 

The FA added: “We took statements from a total of 12 players and officials from both teams, the match referee and the fourth official. None of these individuals directly heard the words alleged to have been said by Firmino. Firmino was formally interviewed by the FA and provided an alternative account to the words alleged by Holgate. Firmino stated that he had insulted the defender in Portuguese, but denied categorically using any discriminatory language towards him.

 

“As part of the investigation, the FA sought the assistance of a Brazilian/Portuguese linguistic specialist on the words alleged. In addition to this, we also obtained multiple angles of video footage, including broadcast and unseen footage showing the incident, which was assessed by two independent Portuguese-speaking lip‑reading experts. The evidence obtained from the experts did not support the allegation.”

 

Firmino said after the FA’s verdict that it had been difficult to remain publicly silent “given the serious and damaging nature of what it was claimed I said”, but was pleased to have been cleared of any wrongdoing. “As someone who has experienced racist abuse during my life, I know how damaging and hurtful it can be,” the Liverpool forward said.  “Now the process is concluded I would like to place on record, for the avoidance of any doubt, I did not say the word, or a variation of the word, that was claimed and subsequently reported in the media. I did not use any language that referenced race. I did not – and would never – reference a person’s skin colour or culture, by means of insult, during a dispute or an argument. There is no place for discrimination on a football pitch, or anywhere else in life for that matter. I am pleased after exhaustive reviews of all the evidence, in this specific incident, the matter is resolved.”

 

Liverpool thanked Firmino for “the manner in which he has conducted himself during this difficult process, acknowledging that being subjected to such a serious allegation for this length of time has been hurtful to him and his family”, adding: “Both the club and player were in full agreement from the beginning that if an investigation was required it should be a thorough and robust one.

 

“Roberto has cooperated fully with the process and shown a willingness to engage and assist throughout, with the only objective being to discover the truth of what happened. We are satisfied that the outcome of the process has exonerated the player of using any racist or discriminatory language.”

Everton said in a statement that they accepted the FA’s decision and appreciated the thoroughness of an investigation conducted “in challenging circumstances”. It added: “The club welcomes the FA’s expression of complete satisfaction that the allegation made by our player, Mason Holgate, was done so in absolute good faith, that proper process was followed and that there is no suggestion of malice or dishonesty on Mason’s part.”

 

 

[handworth52]

this total nonsense by the fa just sums up the state of things ,im all for fairness in society ,but your more likely to go to jail for 5 years if forestieri was found guilty of a racist comment , but he aint, but if someone does 100 break ins attacks someone that they almost die that person will receive a lower sentence than someone who has used a racist comment . ive never used or would ever use a racist term but the way things are going we might get shot by a firing squad in 5 years .forestieri was found not guilty ,he paid out a 25k fine and received a 3 match ban for the incident . fa why the hell cant you just leave this alone now.