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Birmingham immediate 9 point deduction..does it affect us?

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1 minute ago, RichieB said:

 

True, but our wage bill since 2016 has gone from £19m to £29m 

 

Wages and fees are getting out of hand with owners absolutley desperate to be in the premier league. 

 

I feel like the FFP limit should be raised or parachute payments should be stopped/lowered, one or the other. 

I've seen some talk of reforms to the EFL governing structure, but nothing yet about any changes to P&S.

EFL Chief executive Shaun Harvey recently announced his resignation and will step down this summer. Apparently 19 of the 24 Championship clubs wanted him out.
The big Championship clubs want more of a say in the appointment of Harvey's successor and also want each club to have a vote on key issues, weighted by club size. At the moment the nine member EFL board of directors takes most decisions. The board is currently made up of three appointees from the EFL, three representatives of the Championship clubs, two from League One and one from League Two. So I guess there will be an opportunity to reform P&S while they are at it. They'd have to move sharpish over the summer to agree changes though.

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15 minutes ago, Great Big Galaa said:

 

I feel sorry for you mate. I think the EFL's P&S rules are a load of rubbish TBH. Totally expecting us to be shafted in the summer too?

https://t.co/dz90AGHSFV?amp=1

 

He's been pretty much spot on with ffp and our accounts.

 

I dont think you will be, you ve played ball havent you? Interesting he notes that we were announced to the panel as the onky side to break ffp last year

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21 minutes ago, steelowl said:

 

is that a fixed 400 years or a rolling one?  askin for a confused friend

As I understand it the Pre-Raphaelites got done because they tried to roll International Gothic, early Renaissance and High Renaissance into the same accounting period.
Quite right too, the medievalising bar stewards.
Has your friend got a sister?

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Why the hell has it taken the football authorities 7 months to come to this decision?

 

What have they been doing all this time!

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6 minutes ago, HarrowbyOwl said:

As I understand it the Pre-Raphaelites got done because they tried to roll International Gothic, early Renaissance and High Renaissance into the same accounting period.
Quite right too, the medievalising bar stewards.
Has your friend got a sister?

Make sure you don't have to exhume her body like Rossetti had to do with Elizabeth Siddall

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1 minute ago, The Captain said:

Why the hell has it taken the football authorities 7 months to come to this decision?

 

What have they been doing all this time!

The accounts aren't finalised until after the January transfer window, as a club may sell players to balance their books. Birmingham suggested to the EFL that they would have £8.4m of player sales to add to their coffers, none of which materialised. They've only actually taken 6 weeks to get this sorted.

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5 minutes ago, daveyboy66 said:

Make sure you don't have to exhume her body like Rossetti had to do with Elizabeth Siddall

Thanks for the heads up mate.

Might give Steelowl's friend's sister a miss, specially if she's one of them that nicks your poems and hides em in her coffin

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1 hour ago, HarrowbyOwl said:

The P&S assessments now take place every year, following submission of financial data on 1 March. That means for the current year (referred to under the rules as year 'T') clubs have 9 months of confirmed profit and loss and submit an estimate for the remaining 3 months to end of accounting year.  The year T figures are added to those of the past 2 years (T -1 and T -2).

At the start of the new season T -2 becomes T -3 and is no longer taken into account. T -1 becomes T -2 and T becomes T -1.

There's no way that B'ham have escaped from this and somehow cleared their past losses.

 

But I agree, a 9 point deduction that has no implications for promotion or relegation is not much of a penalty.

Upon reading the Commissions statement who have made the decision it appears the penalty clears the problem and no embargo follows. They have imposed the costs of the hearing on Birmingham so added to debt. I accept what you say above of how process works but you can nt be tried twice for same offence and presumably punishment has been levied for the years 17-18. 16-17, and 15-16. I accept that end of his season it will be a new period but the majority of these losses were incurred in one year and it would seem wrong for a club to be punished on more than one occasion for one years expenditure. I have read Commissions statement several times and it does indicate end of matter and no reference about taking into offence in future years. 

In our situation last year would have been the worst one and this year should be an improvement with a substantial reduction from July onwards so we may have escaped any punishment.

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10 minutes ago, Minton said:

The accounts aren't finalised until after the January transfer window, as a club may sell players to balance their books. Birmingham suggested to the EFL that they would have £8.4m of player sales to add to their coffers, none of which materialised. They've only actually taken 6 weeks to get this sorted.

 

Then where’s our points deduction?

 

Wednesday’s financial losses have been in a worst state the Birmingham’s over the last 3 years.

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16 minutes ago, The Captain said:

Why the hell has it taken the football authorities 7 months to come to this decision?

 

What have they been doing all this time!

The delay is explained in the commissions findings. They acknowledge it took too long. 

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1 minute ago, The Captain said:

 

Then where’s our points deduction?

 

Wednesday’s financial losses have been in a worst state the Birmingham’s over the last 3 years.

They haven't.

 

Birmingham lost allowed amount in one year.

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1 minute ago, Birley Owl 1867 said:

They haven't.

 

Birmingham lost allowed amount in one year.

 

I stand corrected.

 

Wow Birmingham’s finances really are in a big mess.

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4 hours ago, HarrowbyOwl said:

If only.

There's no fixed limit on number of points that can be deducted and basically unlimited 'other' penalties.

 

A Commission may issue a decision to:

·         order a party to do or refrain from doing anything;

·         order a specific performance;

·         make a declaration on any matter to be determined;

·         issue a reprimand or warning as to the future conduct of a party;

·         order the payment of compensation to The League, any Club, any other club, Player or other person;

·         order a suspension of membership of The League;

·         order a deduction of points;

·         impose a financial penalty payable to The League;

·         recommend expulsion from membership of The League;

·         order a withdrawal or loss of benefit otherwise available to members of The League e.g. basic award or ladder payment;

·         impose an embargo on registration of Players;

·         order any other sanction as the Disciplinary Commission may think fit; and

·         order that interest be payable on any sums awarded under this Regulation for such period and at such rates as the Disciplinary Commission thinks fit.

That is all true but if another club loses a similar amount to Birmingham the league is more or less obliged to give them the same 'penalty'. If they increase it substantially without good cause the club would appeal on the grounds that it is unfair. The appeal would be highly likely to succeed.

 

Rules and regulations can't be arbitrary. It looks like the EFL have made a rod for their own back with this.

 

It looks to me as if the points deduction has been carefully chosen so that it doesn't cause Birmingham to get relegated which would cause an appeal which the league might lose on the basis that it is out of proportion to the crime. I suspect they have also waited until Birmingham have no chance of promotion before applying it.

 

The next question is obviously when do we find out our penalty and will it apply this year or next. Personally if we lose the next couple of games I'd be delighted if our penalty* is the same as Brums and applied this year.

 

* Sorry I forgot, WE NEVER GET PENALTIES. lol

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1 hour ago, Minton said:

The P&S that they have failed is based on 3 year rolling accounts.

 

Y1 - 2016

Y2 - 2017

Y3 - 2018

 

They have failed this, they have been deducted points. The matter is now closed. Next year is a new matter, the P&S will be based on;

 

Y2 - 2017

Y3 - 2018

Y4 - 2019

 

Seeing as they lost over £39m in 2017 alone, they will more than likely be in breach on the P&S once their accounts have been submitted
 

Most of their debt was accumulated in one season. If you are tried and punished for this is it fair to use that again? If you misbehave in one season should it punish you for more than one. In any legal system it would not stand up to try someone for same crime and punish them more than once. The commissions statement goes into some detail of how debt was incurred. I understand point you are making but using same financial data to inflict punishment on more than one occasion would be difficult to justify.

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Birmingham get away very easy, I say. No mention of a fee. It says they will face no more fees or transfer embargos. Deducted 9 points, but they didn't really have a real chance of play-offs. And left 5 point above relegation, which leaves them with a fairly straight forwards job to keep them in the division with only 8 games left.

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1 hour ago, HarrowbyOwl said:

Dante Gabriel Rossetti's Pre-Raphaelites deserved everything they got if you ask me mate

Trying to return to the intense colours and complex compositions of Quattrocento Italian art my arse

Harrowby will you be my "Owlstalk Art Buddy"?........

:Sid:

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Is it worth taking the 9 point hit and splashing out massively and buying players who can almost guarantee getting you promoted. ?

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4 hours ago, Pablo Bonvin said:

I bet that two hat blunt who complains regularly about D taxis etc has also been in touch...... anyone know who he/She is?WTF:

Wilder

lol

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6 minutes ago, OWLERTON GHOST said:

Harrowby will you be my "Owlstalk Art Buddy"?........

:Sid:

Painting by numbers

:Sid:

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6 hours ago, Hookowl said:

Don't think the slate will be wiped clean.

I would guess the bit about no further financial penalties just means no fine on top of the points deduction.

The way points deduction is calculated is on the size of the loss. The maximum is 12 points and then there is a sliding scale which can reduce this figure. They were £9 million over which meant they got a 7 point deduction and it was topped up to 9 pts by an aggravating factors component which goes from 0 pts to 9 pts. If £9 million of loss has already been accounted for in this season surely that has to be taken into account in subsequent seasons otherwise you would be being charged with same loss twice. 

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