Big shake up

[OwlinOldham]

2 hours ago, trask43 said:

The other more modern way which would suit more of our existing talented players and if we ever get everyone fit we could experiment with this season would be something like

 

                                  westwood

 

Iorfa           lees                          hector       lazaar

                                  

                                  hutch

         onomah                              bannan

 

 

          reach                                  aarons

                                   ff

                   

 

 

As awesome as it would be to see a modern set up like that above, Bannan would still end up dropping deep and leaving Onomah isolated. Hutch drops deep as he should when required, Bannan then drops deep to recieve the ball from Hutch and thats when the problems start. Hes doing it now with Hutch, he did it with Pelupessy and he did it with Lee too. Lee actually went from being our ball winner who broke up play for us, to having to be a box to box midfielder. This was because of Bannan dropping and playing too deep. Before Bannan was here, Lee was a busy little CM whos main skill was winning the ball back and playing smart simple passes. 

[gurujuan]

4 hours ago, Roy Of The Roasters said:

 

In my book, 6 targeted signings in a starting line up of 11 qualifies as major upheaval. And how do we afford them? Unless Bruce has a list of out of contract gems from the lower leagues.

 

I'm afraid I see no easy answers. It's going to be a case of tinkering for a couple of seasons until we've cleared out the dead wood and unwound the FFP issue.

And quite right, but to be fair, that’s what we should have been doing since Wembley Too many players have been signed as some sort of back up, and in many cases, they were actually older than the players who had the shirt Quantity over quality I’m afraid. 

Were we to lose just all those out of contract, six is about all we could bring in to refresh the squad. There would be limited mileage in signing players that were no better than what we have, so the likelihood is that they would be starters

[gurujuan]

4 minutes ago, OwlinOldham said:

 

As awesome as it would be to see a modern set up like that above, Bannan would still end up dropping deep and leaving Onomah isolated. Hutch drops deep as he should when required, Bannan then drops deep to recieve the ball from Hutch and thats when the problems start. Hes doing it now with Hutch, he did it with Pelupessy and he did it with Lee too. Lee actually went from being our ball winner who broke up play for us, to having to be a box to box midfielder. This was because of Bannan dropping and playing too deep. Before Bannan was here, Lee was a busy little CM whos main skill was winning the ball back and playing smart simple passes. 

As someone else mentioned, Bannan and Reach, our midfield talismen, are also the two that present us with the biggest problem 

[Kopparberg]

5 hours ago, gurujuan said:

Six targeted signings could remedy that, we don’t need major upheaval

 

Yeah. 6 Prem loans next season would be great if we could get them, or even just strong Championship ones. 

 

I’d say we need 2 wide players, a left back, a CB if we don’t keep Hector, a striker and a central midfielder. 

 

We’d have to get rid of 2 of our current strikers though probably, somehow. 

[gurujuan]

2 minutes ago, Kopparberg said:

 

Yeah. 6 Prem loans next season would be great if we could get them, or even just strong Championship ones. 

 

I’d say we need 2 wide players, a left back, a CB if we don’t keep Hector, a striker and a central midfielder. 

 

We’d have to get rid of 2 of our current strikers though probably, somehow. 

I’d be happy with that Would that be on top of the out of contract pair Matias and Hooper? Certainly, if we could get 6 loanees as good as Hector, we’d be alright. Better still, 5 loanees, and sign Hector up permanently

[Hack-Abusi]

On 17/02/2019 at 11:07, gurujuan said:

Six targeted signings could remedy that, we don’t need major upheaval

They could but to bring them in, we need to offload ...

 

ALSO me personally, i am somewhat a fan of Bannan, but long term he just doesn't fit what we need. He's the type of player that fits in a midfield 3 playing behind the strikers .. he has a ridiculous desire to drop deep to collect the ball which makes our midfield totally ineffective. He needs to be taught not to do this or offloaded. Plus, how he's playing at the minute, he offers us absolutely nothing. we need more out of him

 

for a supposed creative midfielder, he's amassed 6 goals and 17 assists in 143 league games ... not enough if you ask me

Edited February 18, 2019 by Hack-Abusi

[gurujuan]

7 minutes ago, Hack-Abusi said:

They could but to bring them in, we need to offload ...

 

ALSO me personally, i am somewhat a fan of Bannan, but long term he just doesn't fit what we need. He's the type of player that fits in a midfield 3 playing behind the strikers .. he has a ridiculous desire to drop deep to collect the ball which makes our midfield totally ineffective. He needs to be taught not to do this or offloaded. Plus, how he's playing at the minute, he offers us absolutely nothing. we need more out of him

 

for a supposed creative midfielder, he's amassed 6 goals and 17 assists in 143 league games ... not enough if you ask me

The main thrust of our summer dealings in the summer, should centre around this particular area. In the present set up, I agree Bannan isn’t really a good fit. No doubt he’s a very tidy player, who helps the side retain possession, but he doesn’t have the attacking instincts needed to be a creative midfielder. Maybe a role in a different midfield set up? For perhaps slightly different reasons, I also have reservations about Reach in the existing set up As I said, I do think the midfield needs major surgery

[gurujuan]

One further point regarding Bannan, it doesn’t necessarily help his game that the options further ahead, are often too static With more movement up front, we may see a different Bannan. Just a thought

[peacock1961]

9 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

One further point regarding Bannan, it doesn’t necessarily help his game that the options further ahead, are often too static With more movement up front, we may see a different Bannan. Just a thought

As an ex forward I can tell you that if all you constantly get is a floaty ball from the back as an outball then you do tend to get a little bored. Without Hooper/Lee there is no linkage. 

[OwlinOldham]

Bannan is a terrific player, but only in the right set up that's built around him.

I am beginning to wonder if Carlos saw and realised this issue and that's why he played him on the left so much and left Lopez to play centrally.

I don't buy all this Bannan on the decline talk, rather I think its a case of we have no link up player in there like @peacock1961 said.

Without a box to box player like Lee or a Hooper to drop in deep for the easy ball, Bannan is usually the furthest forward central player we have. The fact that he's still usually in our half whilst being our most forward central player, is why we are in effect playing long floaty ball football right now .  

We either need a box to box midfielder alongside him or the alternative is to offload Bannan. As much as the latter option would actually bother me as I am a genuine fan of his, it would likely completely change the way we play and probably for the better.

 

[gurujuan]

8 minutes ago, OwlinOldham said:

Bannan is a terrific player, but only in the right set up that's built around him.

I am beginning to wonder if Carlos saw and realised this issue and that's why he played him on the left so much and left Lopez to play centrally.

I don't buy all this Bannan on the decline talk, rather I think its a case of we have no link up player in there like @peacock1961 said.

Without a box to box player like Lee or a Hooper to drop in deep for the easy ball, Bannan is usually the furthest forward central player we have. The fact that he's still usually in our half whilst being our most forward central player, is why we are in effect playing long floaty ball football right now .  

We either need a box to box midfielder alongside him or the alternative is to offload Bannan. As much as the latter option would actually bother me as I am a genuine fan of his, it would likely completely change the way we play and probably for the better.

 

Bannan’s strength is his ball retention, and his passing. Defensive duties, or getting into the opponents box, those are not his strong points So what does he need around him for him to thrive? Previously, under Carlos, he had Hutchinson sitting, and Lee running beyond. Do we not potentially have that now with Reach doing the box to box stuff? He has the energy to do it, and he gets goals, but somehow it feels wrong. We also had Wallace tucking in, playing narrow, and it looks like Bruce is trying to get Boyd doing the same. Not sure that it’s my idea of the way forward, but if that’s how Bruce wants to play, what do we need to make it work

[SallyCinnamon]

3 hours ago, gurujuan said:

One further point regarding Bannan, it doesn’t necessarily help his game that the options further ahead, are often too static With more movement up front, we may see a different Bannan. Just a thought

 

We 100 per cent would.

 

That through ball to Aarons against Reading is a glimpse of what's possible if Bannan has pace in front of him. 

[SallyCinnamon]

30 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

Bannan’s strength is his ball retention, and his passing. Defensive duties, or getting into the opponents box, those are not his strong points So what does he need around him for him to thrive? Previously, under Carlos, he had Hutchinson sitting, and Lee running beyond. Do we not potentially have that now with Reach doing the box to box stuff? He has the energy to do it, and he gets goals, but somehow it feels wrong. We also had Wallace tucking in, playing narrow, and it looks like Bruce is trying to get Boyd doing the same. Not sure that it’s my idea of the way forward, but if that’s how Bruce wants to play, what do we need to make it work

 

Those first two seasons under Carlos, we had Lee, Bannan, Hooper, FF, Wallace, Hunt, Pudil all linking up and playing fantastic football. Those combinations have been destroyed through injury and age. 

 

Bannan just needs better players around him. 

[OwlinOldham]

1 hour ago, gurujuan said:

Bannan’s strength is his ball retention, and his passing. Defensive duties, or getting into the opponents box, those are not his strong points So what does he need around him for him to thrive? Previously, under Carlos, he had Hutchinson sitting, and Lee running beyond. Do we not potentially have that now with Reach doing the box to box stuff? He has the energy to do it, and he gets goals, but somehow it feels wrong. We also had Wallace tucking in, playing narrow, and it looks like Bruce is trying to get Boyd doing the same. Not sure that it’s my idea of the way forward, but if that’s how Bruce wants to play, what do we need to make it work

 

I honestly think a good box to box midfielder is the answer. The problem we have is Bannan is usually the furthest forward CM player we have. This means that when he goes looking for the ball just in front of the defence, there's nobody there in the middle then for him to pass it on to. The ironic thing is that the big space where there is no midfielder for him to pass to, is actually the position where he should be sat waiting to get the ball and push us on up the pitch. One of the best games our midfield played was when Bannan was out and Pelupessey and Onamah played against West Brom.

Pelupessey got to play the deep role while Onamah helped us play further up the pitch. it was a positive midfield that day rather than the deep negative one we usually end up with.

 

If we can get the defence back to not panicking each time the ball comes into the box and lose the need to play a defensive mid, I think a box to box player like K Lee was/is would be the answer. With that we can leave Bannan deep while his midfield partner gives us a chance of having a central midfield presence in the attacking third. We could also still play with a wide player on one side tucking in and going narrow, with Fessi or Reach able to do that from one side and a flying winger on the other. Get the wide players to interchange and swap sides when required and that could be a good midfield dynamic which is hard to predict and play against.

 

Reach did a good job for us centrally for a while, but he's not brave enough or clever enough to do it full time. K Lee was clever with the ball at his feet, fast thinking and not usually panicked into a bad pass. I like Reach, but he's better coming inside from out wide rather than going end to end and being responsible for building attacks on the edge of the box.

 

Obviously this is just how I see it, everyone's got their own different views on how we should use our players.

Edited February 18, 2019 by OwlinOldham

[fpowl]

With the suspension to Forestieri and injury to both lees and thorniley this is what I’d like to see 

 

if fernando was suspended I’d have him on the left and Aaron’s on the right instead of reach 

 

even if he keeps the same full backs I’d still go Lazar and Aaron’s on each wing instead of reach and Boyd 

 

i want to see pace now 

[NYCOWL]

1 hour ago, OwlinOldham said:

 

We either need a box to box midfielder alongside him or the alternative is to offload Bannan. As much as the latter option would actually bother me as I am a genuine fan of his, it would likely completely change the way we play and probably for the better.

 

This sums it up for me.

 

Bannan was a different beast when he had Lee. But he's been out for a long time. As stated earlier, the midfield just isn't working anymore.

[York_Owl]

23 hours ago, OwlinOldham said:

 

As awesome as it would be to see a modern set up like that above, Bannan would still end up dropping deep and leaving Onomah isolated. Hutch drops deep as he should when required, Bannan then drops deep to recieve the ball from Hutch and thats when the problems start. Hes doing it now with Hutch, he did it with Pelupessy and he did it with Lee too. Lee actually went from being our ball winner who broke up play for us, to having to be a box to box midfielder. This was because of Bannan dropping and playing too deep. Before Bannan was here, Lee was a busy little CM whos main skill was winning the ball back and playing smart simple passes. 

Bannan is dropping deep now because that's his role in a 2 man central midfield in a 4-2-3-1.  In a 4-4-2 both central midfielders need to be able to get up and down or, at least one of them does but, other than Lee, when he was fit, we don't have any central midfielders that can do that.  A two man central midfield just doesn't suit our current squad of players. 

 

Bannan could play a more attacking role as the left of centre three man midfield with Hutch sweeping everything up behind him.  We really miss Lee on the right hand side of that three man central midfield.  Reach could do a job there and, possibly Onomah too.  

[gurujuan]

38 minutes ago, OwlinOldham said:

 

I honestly think a good box to box midfielder is the answer. The problem we have is Bannan is usually the furthest forward CM player we have. This means that when he goes looking for the ball just in front of the defence, there's nobody there in the middle then for him to pass it on to. The ironic thing is that the big space where there is no midfielder for him to pass to, is actually the position where he should be sat waiting to get the ball and push us on up the pitch. One of the best games our midfield played was when Bannan was out and Pelupessey and Onamah played against West Brom.

Pelupessey got to play the deep role while Onamah helped us play further up the pitch. it was a positive midfield that day rather than the deep negative one we usually end up with.

 

If we can get the defence back to not panicking each time the ball comes into the box and lose the need to play a defensive mid, I think a box to box player like K Lee was/is would be the answer. With that we can leave Bannan deep while his midfield partner gives us a chance of having a central midfield presence in the attacking third. We could also still play with a wide player on one side tucking in and going narrow, with Fessi or Reach able to do that from one side and a flying winger on the other. Get the wide players to interchange and swap sides when required and that could be a good midfield dynamic which is hard to predict and play against.

 

Reach did a good job for us centrally for a while, but he's not brave enough or clever enough to do it full time. K Lee was clever with the ball at his feet, fast thinking and not usually panicked into a bad pass. I like Reach, but he's better coming inside from out wide rather than going end to end and being responsible for building attacks on the edge of the box.

 

Obviously this is just how I see it, everyone's got their own different views on how we should use our players.

Hutchinson has to play for me, he’s the anchor role If Reach isn’t to be trusted in the box to box role, because he’s maybe too weak, then I’d suggest Onomah That’s the role Bruce wanted him to play at Villa.

[OwlinOldham]

40 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

Hutchinson has to play for me, he’s the anchor role If Reach isn’t to be trusted in the box to box role, because he’s maybe too weak, then I’d suggest Onomah That’s the role Bruce wanted him to play at Villa.

 

That would do for me to be fair. Right now with Bannan we are too one dimentional and predictable. Worth a shot for a few games at the very least. I have no issues with Hutch or Bannan, i just dont want to see them play together as we just sit deeper and deeper in games and lose all attacking intent through the middle.

 

57 minutes ago, York_Owl said:

Bannan is dropping deep now because that's his role in a 2 man central midfield in a 4-2-3-1.  In a 4-4-2 both central midfielders need to be able to get up and down or, at least one of them does but, other than Lee, when he was fit, we don't have any central midfielders that can do that.  A two man central midfield just doesn't suit our current squad of players. 

 

Bannan could play a more attacking role as the left of centre three man midfield with Hutch sweeping everything up behind him.  We really miss Lee on the right hand side of that three man central midfield.  Reach could do a job there and, possibly Onomah too.  

 

Totally get what your saying regarding the 4231. But even then we see Bannan deeper than Hutch and too deep to provide anything more than a hopeful long ball over the top. Hes a very good playmaker but we arent able to set up to accommadate that right now. Plus the lack of pace we have in the team means the wide players we play in a 4231 cant actually get up and down quick enough to support the style of play.

 

Like you say, we miss Lee so much and thats not easy to replace. Even if you find someone with his energy, you woulf be likely missing the skill he had with the ball and his ability to find a player in space with the deftest of touches. If i could set us up a midfield 4 right now based on Onamah being a bit of a box to box type it would be 

 

Reach right and cutting in like wallace used to.

Hutch as a play breaker.

Onamah to get us up the pitch and to offer options on the edge of the box.

Aarons as the flying winger to scare the oppo defence.

 

Swap the wingers sides at will and play fessi in place of reach in games where we expect to control possession. 

 

If only it were that easy though lol.

[gurujuan]

There is an issue with all of this, if we use say, Onomah as the box to box man, starting from a position alongside Hutch, will we have enough goals in us. In that 4-2-3-1 system, with Bannan on the left, and Reach on the right, leaving, presumably Forestieri as the man in the middle. We would definitely need the lone frontman to not only be more mobile than Fletcher, but more prolific as well. Think we’d be looking at an Abraham or a Hernandez style lone striker

Edited February 18, 2019 by gurujuan