Perspective - This is a Major Rebuild & Jos Needs Time

[quinnssweetshop]

34 minutes ago, room0035 said:

I think the thinking behind it is we have the worse defense in the league, the most goal conceded in the league, the most chances created against in the league and so on, we have changed every player but one in defense so you bring in a keeper that when fit holds the joint record for the most clean sheets in our 151 year history.

 

We have Pelupessy playing in defensive midfield and most can see he is not currently good enough for this level, his reading of the game is poor, he is regularly out of position. In the same position we have at a championship quality replacement in Hutch who has proved over 4 season to be the heart beat of our engine room and when he plays the team around him seem to perform better.

 

Two positions we are currently weak in with better players not being allowed to play any form of games, both we are told there is no issues with but day to day the manager does not have a clue if they are fit or training. Clearly something has happened and we are being kept in the dark once again.

 

I don't rate Boyd or Jones but they have a decade of experience and they can do a job - take the West Brom game two up with 10 minutes left the manager bring Jones on he would have taken one for the team and brought the lad down and we would have won that game instead on come krikby and we end up conceding midfield and two goals. At the end of the season 2 points could be vital for us at both ends of the table.

 

Apply for manager mate, because Jos hasn't half a clue compared to you.

[Hookowl]

26 minutes ago, asteener1867 said:

Trouble is mate, the less players you have,,,,adequate players..The harder it is to actually use them to match up the opposition...too many variables.

We need a system and play to it...let the other side do the thinking...We honestly can't.......... and it shows

 

15 minutes ago, room0035 said:

I understood what you meant that keeping the same formation we eventually get found out.

 

The problem we have is game to game the personnel and formation changes and then the players on top of that are asked to play a completely different way

 

The best way I can put it, the best defender i saw in an Owls shirt was Des Walker, would you see him taking attackers on and and going forward with the ball - NO, he defended he put tackles in and when unsure put the ball in row Z. He did his job and played 350+ games for us.  Under Jos one week he would be in a back 3 or 4 or 5, then he would be playing out from the back, long balls up front, passing between team mates. Each week he would have a different role instead of the role he performed season in season out for 8 season very well

 

Look at your squad, see what players can play what way and pick a formation and system that they can do and work with. Then if from time to time you need to change to say a 4-3-3 or a 3-4-3 then do but not every game.

 I agree with both of you to an extent but as @asteener1867 says we don't seem to have enough adequate players available for one reason or another.

I believe, and this is just my thoughts and I may be completely wrong, that in an ideal situation Jos would have assembled a team of his own choosing to play how he would like them to set up and play.

Because he hasn't got this he is trying to nullify the opposing teams tactics by changing formations to suit how they set up and play, which admittedly just recently is not working.

 

[Semedo's ferret]

On 11/11/2018 at 16:21, gurujuan said:

This ^^ We know what the situation is regarding some of the older players, we knew it last season. So did Jos though, his job was to work with the players he has, and organise them into an effective unit There’s no sign that he’s started doing that

Klopp couldn't organise that lot into anything sustainable. The majority of available players are bottom 6 material. 

[room0035]

10 minutes ago, Hookowl said:

 

 I agree with both of you to an extent but as @asteener1867 says we don't seem to have enough adequate players available for one reason or another.

I believe, and this is just my thoughts and I may be completely wrong, that in an ideal situation Jos would have assembled a team of his own choosing to play how he would like them to set up and play.

Because he hasn't got this he is trying to nullify the opposing teams tactics by changing formations to suit how they set up and play, which admittedly just recently is not working.

 

I fell with Jos is he is out of his depth - everything I have read about him is he is a man of principles and he does things the right way but as they say 'actions speak loader than words' and clearly he is doing what he is told from above when in the past he has walked from clubs that have treated him how DC is.

 

I really do not understand his plan of alienating players who have a proven track record in this league but then not putting them in the shop window to try and off load them.

 

Take the keeper issue - would it not be better to have Westwood on the bench not playing and Wildsmith out on loan instead Westwood sits at home and Wildsmith also get no game time either. A very strange way to manage the best goal keeping talent we have had for some years and as could be seen recently Wildsmith development is stalling because of it.

[Hookowl]

3 minutes ago, room0035 said:

I fell with Jos is he is out of his depth - everything I have read about him is he is a man of principles and he does things the right way but as they say 'actions speak loader than words' and clearly he is doing what he is told from above when in the past he has walked from clubs that have treated him how DC is.

 

I really do not understand his plan of alienating players who have a proven track record in this league but then not putting them in the shop window to try and off load them.

 

Take the keeper issue - would it not be better to have Westwood on the bench not playing and Wildsmith out on loan instead Westwood sits at home and Wildsmith also get no game time either. A very strange way to manage the best goal keeping talent we have had for some years and as could be seen recently Wildsmith development is stalling because of it.

 

Agree with that but would Westwood be agreeable to being classed as number 2 and sitting on the bench ?

I'm not so sure.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Hookowl

[ZicoSterland2]

1 hour ago, Hookowl said:

 

I can't seem to remember them doing a lot when some of them did last play. Although I do seem to remember a long spell of games with no shots at all never mind shots on target.

Now they are being portrayed as our unsung hero's.

The answer is simple they are better than the players Jos is picking. Only a fool does not use all the assets available to him. Even worse if its an ego trip. 

[Hookowl]

1 minute ago, ZicoSterland2 said:

The answer is simple they are better than the players Jos is picking. Only a fool does not use all the assets available to him. Even worse if its an ego trip. 

 

Lots on here didn't think so at the time 

[Sham67]

10 minutes ago, Hookowl said:

 

Lots on here didn't think so at the time 

 

It's known in scientific circles as the Heffernan effect.

[gurujuan]

1 hour ago, room0035 said:

I think the thinking behind it is we have the worse defense in the league, the most goal conceded in the league, the most chances created against in the league and so on, we have changed every player but one in defense so you bring in a keeper that when fit holds the joint record for the most clean sheets in our 151 year history.

 

We have Pelupessy playing in defensive midfield and most can see he is not currently good enough for this level, his reading of the game is poor, he is regularly out of position. In the same position we have at a championship quality replacement in Hutch who has proved over 4 season to be the heart beat of our engine room and when he plays the team around him seem to perform better.

 

Two positions we are currently weak in with better players not being allowed to play any form of games, both we are told there is no issues with but day to day the manager does not have a clue if they are fit or training. Clearly something has happened and we are being kept in the dark once again.

 

I don't rate Boyd or Jones but they have a decade of experience and they can do a job - take the West Brom game two up with 10 minutes left the manager bring Jones on he would have taken one for the team and brought the lad down and we would have won that game instead on come krikby and we end up conceding midfield and two goals. At the end of the season 2 points could be vital for us at both ends of the table.

I’m pretty sure that is Jos’s thinking, yes. Statistics might indicate that we have the worst defence in the league, but I don’t believe it is The constant chopping and changing of systems and personnel ahead of an inexperienced goalkeeper, makes the defence look worse than it is The more worrying statistic, is that we are rock bottom when it comes to chances created. We wouldn’t suggest that the likes of Bannan, Reach and Forestieri are incapable of creating chances would we? Believe me, our current malaise is down to tactics, and not players

[Sham67]

Just now, gurujuan said:

I’m pretty sure that is Jos’s thinking, yes. Statistics might indicate that we have the worst defence in the league, but I don’t believe it is The constant chopping and changing of systems and personnel ahead of an inexperienced goalkeeper, makes the defence look worse than it is The more worrying statistic, is that we are rock bottom when it comes to chances created. We wouldn’t suggest that the likes of Bannan, Reach and Forestieri are incapable of creating chances would we? Believe me, our current malaise is down to tactics, and not players

 

What's our chance creation rate when Bannan, Reach and Forestieri are all playing?

[Guest LittleG]

44 minutes ago, Hookowl said:

 

 I agree with both of you to an extent but as @asteener1867 says we don't seem to have enough adequate players available for one reason or another.

I believe, and this is just my thoughts and I may be completely wrong, that in an ideal situation Jos would have assembled a team of his own choosing to play how he would like them to set up and play.

Because he hasn't got this he is trying to nullify the opposing teams tactics by changing formations to suit how they set up and play, which admittedly just recently is not working.

 

It's a good point but not sure it's justified. At the end of last season, when we needed points, we got the formation, tactics and personnel right and were not afraid to have a go. This season the complete opposite has taken place; we have gone backwards in all aspects of our game. I know it's all about opinions but the football this season has been dire and negative.

[Steve Down South]

2 hours ago, ZicoSterland2 said:

How can you judge they havent played of late. If you look at our last 5 result's and performances it isnt working not playing them. We can carry on regardless but that on current form would be disastrous. 

I'm basing my view on last season as well, although I am a little surprised Jones hasn't played a part (preferably as late sub against West Brom).

 

Like you, I'm very concerned about current run of form (and tactics often employed by Jos), but believe we should try to get through this without resorting to players who have experience but appear past their best (or possibly even detrimental to team unity).

[gurujuan]

8 minutes ago, Sham67 said:

 

What's our chance creation rate when Bannan, Reach and Forestieri are all playing?

I’m not sure on that one Prior to the Utd game, we were second to bottom, and with us not really creating anything, we’ve slipped to the foot of the table. Looking at those three, it should be right up there with the best in the division, when they all play The thing is, I can’t remember a game this season, where we’ve created chance after chance.

[Walt]

3 hours ago, gurujuan said:

My feeling is, that were we to take the game to the opposition, we wouldn’t have to spend so much time defending. I’m happy enough with Palmer and Penney at full back in a back four. As I mentioned, Tom Lees seems more comfortable in a flat back four, and I’d pair him with either Pudil, or Thorniley, both of whom would be comfortable shifting over to cover Penney’s forward runs. The key for me, would be, it would enable us to play Hector as a proper midfield anchor. Strong and powerful, he’s good at bringing the ball forward, but could also drop back into the back line if needed. He could be the dominant midfielder we’ve needed for years. The major plus point for me, is that it would enable the rest of the midfield to play further up the pitch We can then let our creative players create.

The last three games we have played a back four we have conceded 10 goals, we even went with a 5 in midfield in one of those matches so there are major weaknesses there. To put it all on the defence would be wrong though and I take your point about having a more attacking game plan. Not sure Hector is the answer sitting in front of the back four mind. 

[ZicoSterland2]

1 hour ago, Steve Down South said:

I'm basing my view on last season as well, although I am a little surprised Jones hasn't played a part (preferably as late sub against West Brom).

 

Like you, I'm very concerned about current run of form (and tactics often employed by Jos), but believe we should try to get through this without resorting to players who have experience but appear past their best (or possibly even detrimental to team unity).

The rumours of disunity maybe true but maybe just rumour.A half fit Hutch is better than Pelepussy , and we have waited 2 years to get Abdi fit and now he is he cant beat kids to a place on the bench. Even Jones would steady the midfield better than Joses dutch pal. Who just isnt up to it.  As for the goal keeper I think we all know who is the better keeper. If it was about disunity FF would never get a game with his past track record. 

[Sham67]

4 minutes ago, ZicoSterland2 said:

The rumours of disunity maybe true but maybe just rumour.A half fit Hutch is better than Pelepussy , and we have waited 2 years to get Abdi fit and now he is he cant beat kids to a place on the bench. Even Jones would steady the midfield better than Joses dutch pal. Who just isnt up to it.  As for the goal keeper I think we all know who is the better keeper. If it was about disunity FF would never get a game with his past track record. 

 

Trouble is, he's never fit.  And when he is, he's a rash tackle away from a red card.

[Walt]

3 hours ago, Slogboy said:

Plus Penneys been played in numerous positions since he came in. He needs time at LWB or LB imo for a number of games then see how consistent he is. 

You can't compare the games he's played as jos has clearly asked him to do different jobs each outing.

Thorniley is a great CH, ideal next to Penney. He ain't got the pace to play the wingback/fullback role, my opinion

Think you make some good points but I'd say Thorniley can easily play as a (defensive) full back as his reading of the game and positional play are pretty good. If you want  a wingback then it's Penney everyday of the week, I'd say that Penney is the only genuine wingback we have in the first team squad. It's a shame we lost Clare as I thought he'd make a good RWB. The team would have automatically been set up more as an attacking force with those two in the side as opposed to say either Fox or Palmer.

[Rogers]

Carlos got zero chance to turn it around and we were playing better football than now.

 

How come Jos get’s more time to change tactics, players, and play anti-football. 

[Guest]

On 11/11/2018 at 15:56, Utah Owl said:

Just looking at all the crazy threads on Jos and who should be playing etc. etc.

 

We have an old squad many of whom are suffering from long term injury issues and loss of form. For example:

 

Westwood - now age 34 and had an horrendous season last year with injury and loss of form resulting in him being out of action for the last 12 months

 

Jones - Also aged 34, hasn't played for the side this season and prior to that only featured in half the games

 

Lee - Now aged 30 and is basically (sadly finished due to injury. Has played only intermittently since the 15/16 season and not at all for 12 months

 

Fletcher - Great player but has had injury issues (only 19 appearances last season) and rumoured to be on the highest wage at the club. Will be 32 in March

 

Hooper - Fantastic when available (which since he signed for us sadly hasn't been that often) - only featured in half the games the last two seasons an none this . 31 in January

 

Boyd - Never been able to pin down a regular slot. 20 games last season just one so far this. Already aged 33

 

Abdi - Aged 32 seemingly always injured

 

Hutchinson - Injury prone and reckless hasn't even managed half the games in 4 and a half seasons. 29 and rumours surfacing (on here) as a very difficult character to manage

 

Pudil - Solid and reliable but at 33 how long can he keep going for?

 

Forestieri - 29 in January but temperamental and an  unsettling influence (his no show two seasons ago over pay - even Dingle Mick says he would have got rid for that).

 

These are all players that need to be moved on somehow. It's for the long term benefit of the club and regardless of who the manager is they have got a hell of a job on their hands.

 

Joe does have a reputation for being a very strict disciplinarian and giving youth a chance in order to build a team. Regardless of his team selections he does seem to be sticking by his team selections and I think he deserves the chance to carry on for a couple of seasons.

 

Effectively we are in the same situation as we were following relegation from the EPL. Overpaid, injured and under motivated older players needing to be moved on from a club that was hamstrung with money issues. We tried umpteen managers then who struggled due to the constraints one of whom (Jewell) was a success immediately before and after leaving Hillsborough.

 

Joe is not to blame for the current problems we have with an ageing team on stupid contracts who have all manner of injury, form and motivation issues. Give him a proper chance!

 

Even if Jos goes, the new guy is going to face the same issues, this is a long term job and it's going to take two or three seasons to get back on track.

Theres a few of us banging the same drum. The majority have already decided the managers fate irrespective of the issues which are and were never the managers doing. Most also think big daft Mick is going to use his magic wand and get this pile of shi* we call players to climb up this league. Any manager now who would  come in to do Jos's job is definately not here for the love of the job.  It as a 'one big last payday' for them. written all over it.  Until our so called stars are off loaded when contracts expire any decent manager wouldnt touch our club with a barge pole. 

[DIPPS_S.W.F.C]

Why do people keep saying he hasnt had anything to spend??..we have actually got a decent squad on paper and with the u23's comming in too even better,he knew that was the case he hadnt got any money to spend or very little,that dosent excuse the fact he's dropped senior players,he picks the team and the tactics and he's had over 10 mths  now, no eccuses now he needs to get a shift on and sort his/our identity out..UTO FTB...