Perspective - This is a Major Rebuild & Jos Needs Time

[soldierboyblue]

22 hours ago, Utah Owl said:

He's only been here for 10 months and has been allowed to spend the square root of diddly squat which means he is effectively doing the job with one hand tied behind his back. It also means he makes a very convenient fall guy for Chansiri's complete and utter mismanagement of the club.

 

Under the circumstances is there anyone out there that we can realistically get that can do a better job given that there are no funds and effectively their hands will be tied. Whilst I would love either Warnock or Dingle Mick here, not sure either of them would take the job on in such circumstances.

I agree with most of what you say but:

 

We we never had that new manager reaction that you normally get.

 

We were playing ok then want to QPR and made them look like Brazil due to poo tactics 

 

Read above but same against Brum and Norwich.

 

his job is to motivate but there seems to be little of that from the management so what do we expect of the players?

[Walt]

13 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

Really then, the only thing we, perhaps disagree on, is whether it’s a three or four at the back Personally I’d prefer a four, with a proper holding midfielder who could drop back to make it a three when needed. Palmer, as you say, isn’t a wing back, but he’s a steady full back. Lees also plays better in a four. Penney has shown inconsistencies, but that’s to be expected, and I feel, a bit like Dawson, we just have to back him and persist

I still think we'd be exposed if we played a back four, again down the flanks. I don't think Palmer is good enough at RB but he's better there than at RWB.  We'd look more solid if Thorniley played LB instead of Penney but would lose the attacking threat of Penney. 

[oldishowl]

In the close season we didn't sign any players but we did bring in  an "opposition analyst".

I think this is the approach Jos has taken this season.

The guy assesses our next opponents and then Jos et al decide how we are going to set up and play against them.

 

This to me is why we change the formation from game to game.

He switches between 3 or4 at the back depending on this analysis.

This choice is also impacted by who he has fit and available

 

I am not sure this helps our players. For me the regular change of formation and tactics is what leads to our lack of cohesion and hesitation on the ball. you simply cannot change from week to week and expect things to work smoothly.

It is asking too much of our players.

 

 

 

[Steve Down South]

32 minutes ago, ZicoSterland2 said:

Jos could well be remembered as the manager who bankrupted the club. That could well be the cost of relegation. Its one thing isolating the senior pros but not at the cost of destroying the club. Things need to improve and fast or Jos has to go.

Why do you think reverting to playing the senior pros would solve our problems? I would suggest there hasn't been much evidence of late to support this.

[gurujuan]

15 minutes ago, Walt said:

I still think we'd be exposed if we played a back four, again down the flanks. I don't think Palmer is good enough at RB but he's better there than at RWB.  We'd look more solid if Thorniley played LB instead of Penney but would lose the attacking threat of Penney. 

My feeling is, that were we to take the game to the opposition, we wouldn’t have to spend so much time defending. I’m happy enough with Palmer and Penney at full back in a back four. As I mentioned, Tom Lees seems more comfortable in a flat back four, and I’d pair him with either Pudil, or Thorniley, both of whom would be comfortable shifting over to cover Penney’s forward runs. The key for me, would be, it would enable us to play Hector as a proper midfield anchor. Strong and powerful, he’s good at bringing the ball forward, but could also drop back into the back line if needed. He could be the dominant midfielder we’ve needed for years. The major plus point for me, is that it would enable the rest of the midfield to play further up the pitch We can then let our creative players create.

[asteener1867]

I'd like to think its a "rebuilding" process, sadly I think its gonna take a lot of actual dismantling first.

Now if I was a cynical chairman , I would let a bloke already bordering on unpopular do the actual dismantling, sack him after the hue and cry of "Look what he's doing"...!!!!!

Then bring in a builder...(Insert Meggo Mccarthy etc here)

That way yer builder gets a bit of an honeymoon period (Fans don't try and let the tyres down on his JCB etc)..Cos it wasn't him that did the unpopular part  of  a job  that has to be done first.

Although reading that back it looks too much like an actual plan....and I honestly don't think there is one

 

[ZicoSterland2]

3 minutes ago, Steve Down South said:

Why do you think reverting to playing the senior pros would solve our problems? I would suggest there hasn't been much evidence of late to support this.

How can you judge they havent played of late. If you look at our last 5 result's and performances it isnt working not playing them. We can carry on regardless but that on current form would be disastrous. 

[Hookowl]

3 minutes ago, ZicoSterland2 said:

How can you judge they havent played of late. If you look at our last 5 result's and performances it isnt working not playing them. We can carry on regardless but that on current form would be disastrous. 

 

I can't seem to remember them doing a lot when some of them did last play. Although I do seem to remember a long spell of games with no shots at all never mind shots on target.

Now they are being portrayed as our unsung hero's.

[room0035]

35 minutes ago, oldishowl said:

In the close season we didn't sign any players but we did bring in  an "opposition analyst".

I think this is the approach Jos has taken this season.

The guy assesses our next opponents and then Jos et al decide how we are going to set up and play against them.

 

This to me is why we change the formation from game to game.

He switches between 3 or4 at the back depending on this analysis.

This choice is also impacted by who he has fit and available

 

I am not sure this helps our players. For me the regular change of formation and tactics is what leads to our lack of cohesion and hesitation on the ball. you simply cannot change from week to week and expect things to work smoothly.

It is asking too much of our players.

 

 

 

Don't the good team force the opposition to change their game to match our. This sound very much like a pre arranged excuse for doing badly.

 

Get a formation stick with it each game unless you come up against Real Madrid then why do you need to change game after game.

Edited November 12, 2018 by room0035

[torres]

4 minutes ago, room0035 said:

Don't the good team force the opposition to change their game to match our. This sound very much like a pre arranged excuse for doing badly.

 

Get a formation stick with it each game unless you come up against Real Madrid then why do you need to change game after game.

 

If we have a opposition scout he wants sacking!

 

All we did against boro was smash high balls to the centre backs - the biggest and best defence in the league!!

 

 

[oldishowl]

6 minutes ago, room0035 said:

Don't the good team force the opposition to change their game to match our. This sound very much like a pre arranged excuse for doing badly.

 

Get a formation stick with it each game unless you come up against Real Madrid then why do you need to change game after game.

 

You seem to misunderstand what I have said.

I have said  what I think he does, not that I agree with it.

It is obviously barmy

[Hookowl]

4 minutes ago, room0035 said:

Don't the good team force the opposition to change their game to match our. This sound very much like a pre arranged excuse for doing badly.

 

Get a formation stick with it each game unless you come up against Real Madrid then why do you need to change game after game.

 

Maybe but the thing with that is unless your very good other teams sus you out and play accordingly. Look what happened with Carlos's 4 4 2 after a long run of games.

[room0035]

7 minutes ago, Hookowl said:

 

I can't seem to remember them doing a lot when some of them did last play. Although I do seem to remember a long spell of games with no shots at all never mind shots on target.

Now they are being portrayed as our unsung hero's.

I think the thinking behind it is we have the worse defense in the league, the most goal conceded in the league, the most chances created against in the league and so on, we have changed every player but one in defense so you bring in a keeper that when fit holds the joint record for the most clean sheets in our 151 year history.

 

We have Pelupessy playing in defensive midfield and most can see he is not currently good enough for this level, his reading of the game is poor, he is regularly out of position. In the same position we have at a championship quality replacement in Hutch who has proved over 4 season to be the heart beat of our engine room and when he plays the team around him seem to perform better.

 

Two positions we are currently weak in with better players not being allowed to play any form of games, both we are told there is no issues with but day to day the manager does not have a clue if they are fit or training. Clearly something has happened and we are being kept in the dark once again.

 

I don't rate Boyd or Jones but they have a decade of experience and they can do a job - take the West Brom game two up with 10 minutes left the manager bring Jones on he would have taken one for the team and brought the lad down and we would have won that game instead on come krikby and we end up conceding midfield and two goals. At the end of the season 2 points could be vital for us at both ends of the table.

[asteener1867]

2 minutes ago, room0035 said:

Don't the good team force the opposition to change their game to match our. This sound very much like a pre arranged excuse for doing badly.

 

Get a formation stick with it each game unless you come up against Real Madrid then why do you need to change game after game.

Thats what we haven't got, the ability to force a style of play on anyone, we play tactics the team aren't suited to, we don't seem to have any sort of game plan, bar the one used at The lane the other night...Last ditch , don't lose mentality that won't work most of the time.

We were lucky against Stoke and Leeds, and tbh United woeful against QPR and birmingham, struggled against Millwall and Ipswich, ...Decent against Villa, now thats a fair cross section of the league we are in, some good'uns some bad 'uns...and by and large we have been totally reactionary, see what they do, then we'll do this...ran out of time cos its playing "Second" all the bloody time.

I'm not saying we should have gone Gung ho against United, but I bet me bottom dollar the last thing Wilder expected us to do was have a go, every other manager in the division will no doubt know the same...It leaves us on the back foot, especially at home.

Theres an arguement to say we haven't got the players to do it, but nor have we the players to pass the ball about at the back, any opitions we have are either injured, or in and out of the side as Jos mixes and tries to match every bloody game

[room0035]

3 minutes ago, Hookowl said:

 

Maybe but the thing with that is unless your very good other teams sus you out and play accordingly. Look what happened with Carlos's 4 4 2 after a long run of games.

I do agree but thats where you have a plan b.

 

The team is struggling current so we change the personnell and formation every game they said on Friday in 17 games Jos has made 117 changes to his starting line up that is simple a manager who does not have a clue what his best tam is.

 

Pick a formation 4-4-2 or 3-5-2  pick the back 3 or 4 and play the same guys for the next 5-8 games and the fluidity and clean sheets will come if not swap them out but don't change every game.

[room0035]

2 minutes ago, asteener1867 said:

Thats what we haven't got, the ability to force a style of play on anyone, we play tactics the team aren't suited to, we don't seem to have any sort of game plan, bar the one used at The lane the other night...Last ditch , don't lose mentality that won't work most of the time.

We were lucky against Stoke and Leeds, and tbh United woeful against QPR and birmingham, struggled against Millwall and Ipswich, ...Decent against Villa, now thats a fair cross section of the league we are in, some good'uns some bad 'uns...and by and large we have been totally reactionary, see what they do, then we'll do this...ran out of time cos its playing "Second" all the bloody time.

I'm not saying we should have gone Gung ho against United, but I bet me bottom dollar the last thing Wilder expected us to do was have a go, every other manager in the division will no doubt know the same...It leaves us on the back foot, especially at home.

Theres an arguement to say we haven't got the players to do it, but nor have we the players to pass the ball about at the back, any opitions we have are either injured, or in and out of the side as Jos mixes and tries to match every bloody game

As soon as i saw the team and I did predict prior to the game if Jos set up 5-3-2 there was only going to be one winner.

 

We got lucky they battered us and we were at time very embarrassing we made them look like world beaters.

 

If we had been positive and picked a 4-4-2 we would have defended with two banks of 4, got in their faces and force our game on them instead we sat back and defended Alamo style it was only when Matias came on that we showed any sort of attacking force. The big worry for me was the lack of tactical changes in game there were none we just got deeper and deeper.  Bannan was that deep he could have chats with the keeper - simple the whole team set up was completely wrong.

 

Jos for me is not the man to take the team forward but by the time DC works that out we could be firmly in the bottom 3 and with a team with no confidence left and the good players with experience alienated leaving us no where to turn than relegation. 

 

I know we are only 17 games in but the current situation is that bad - we are not playing well and not getting the rub of the green we are getting pasted a but for a lot of saves we would be losing 4 and 5 every game. 

[Hookowl]

1 minute ago, room0035 said:

I do agree but thats where you have a plan b.

 

The team is struggling current so we change the personnell and formation every game they said on Friday in 17 games Jos has made 117 changes to his starting line up that is simple a manager who does not have a clue what his best tam is.

 

Pick a formation 4-4-2 or 3-5-2  pick the back 3 or 4 and play the same guys for the next 5-8 games and the fluidity and clean sheets will come if not swap them out but don't change every game.

 

Think you maybe misunderstood what I meant.

I'm not advocating keep changing players by any means. 

I was meaning we don't have a sufficiently strong team so maybe changing formations to suit different opponents may seem to be our only option.

[asteener1867]

2 minutes ago, Hookowl said:

 

Think you maybe misunderstood what I meant.

I'm not advocating keep changing players by any means. 

I was meaning we don't have a sufficiently strong team so maybe changing formations to suit different opponents may seem to be our only option.

Trouble is mate, the less players you have,,,,adequate players..The harder it is to actually use them to match up the opposition...too many variables.

We need a system and play to it...let the other side do the thinking...We honestly can't.......... and it shows

[room0035]

9 minutes ago, Hookowl said:

 

Think you maybe misunderstood what I meant.

I'm not advocating keep changing players by any means. 

I was meaning we don't have a sufficiently strong team so maybe changing formations to suit different opponents may seem to be our only option.

I understood what you meant that keeping the same formation we eventually get found out.

 

The problem we have is game to game the personnel and formation changes and then the players on top of that are asked to play a completely different way

 

The best way I can put it, the best defender i saw in an Owls shirt was Des Walker, would you see him taking attackers on and and going forward with the ball - NO, he defended he put tackles in and when unsure put the ball in row Z. He did his job and played 350+ games for us.  Under Jos one week he would be in a back 3 or 4 or 5, then he would be playing out from the back, long balls up front, passing between team mates. Each week he would have a different role instead of the role he performed season in season out for 8 season very well

 

Look at your squad, see what players can play what way and pick a formation and system that they can do and work with. Then if from time to time you need to change to say a 4-3-3 or a 3-4-3 then do but not every game.

[quinnssweetshop]

8 hours ago, ChinaOwl said:

 

Not quite the same players though. We lost Forestieri and Matias almost simultaneously. The squad is not exactly overflowing with creativity. To lose the two most creative players in the team was going to have an effect on the attacking capability of the side, yes? And besides, we were not exactly going to go into the pigs' match all guns blazing in the form that we've been in lately. It was the most obvious backs to the wall match that we've had for some while and came out of it relatively unscathed.

 

You're making weak excuses up for him. I do appreciate what you are saying,
but the side is not devoid of talent. Look at FF's last outage, we played some decent football and rose to 6th. So that counters that argument.

His recent team selection and tactics have been abysmal.. Shocking, and it makes you wonder, why the hell is he doing it ?