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3 minutes ago, northderbyshireowl said:

Yup he didn't play many games for us last season, hence why we did so badly. When he did play more, we did better: the two play off seasons. His influence as captain wasn't represented in his personal stats. 

 

Last season...

 

Loovens in W6 D7 L10

Loovens out W11 D10 L9

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5 minutes ago, DJMortimer said:

 

In the last 2 seasons, Loovens has played 32 games for Wednesday and Sunderland. Only 7 of them resulted in clean sheets and he got sent off after an hour of one of those.

 

There can be no doubt we did the right thing letting him go. 

 

I think he was meaning Loovens prior to his legs packing up to be fair and last season when Lees came back he had the more dominant and vocal Venancio alongside him.

 

We need a leader out there desperately.

 

I mentioned Huth in another thread who is a free agent and fit again and was recently linked with Leeds and Villa but although highly unlikely, and possibly broken beyond repair, he is the type we really need.  

 

Hector shows potential but it will be difficult for him and the team as a loanee and being so new and could make bigger the rift that seems to exist between our Oldun Generation and the New Kids Not The Crocks.

 

Hutch isn't the man and I can't see anyone else out there who stands out apart from Thorniley as one for the future and who is currently better at both jobs than Lees.

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1 minute ago, DJMortimer said:

 

Last season...

 

Loovens in W6 D7 L10

Loovens out W11 D10 L9

As I said, he played so few games last season his personal stats mean nothing. The previous seasons when he played, and had more influence, we did alot better, in terms of clean sheets and win to loss ratio etc.

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Jos maybe asking him to be Franco baresi on the ball, but that Dosent excuse some of the mistakes and errors when he should be doing the basic stuff for defending, putting a tackle in, staying goalside of your man, getting your head on it, if your unsure stick it in row Z and allow yourselves to get set defensively. 

The brutal fact is we've made a good solid defender captain, who hasn't got the ability or leadership qualities to do the job, as a senior pro now he should be doing better, but he needs an organiser and leader along side him to just allow him to do what he does do well and simply  defend without that added responsibility. 

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15 minutes ago, northderbyshireowl said:

As I said, he played so few games last season his personal stats mean nothing. The previous seasons when he played, and had more influence, we did alot better, in terms of clean sheets and win to loss ratio etc.

 

Or in other words, last season showed we were better without Loovens in the team, so we'll make some weak excuses as to why the results don't count? :huh:

 

Loovens did not start more than 31 league games in any of his 5 seasons at the club (ie. he missed around a third of the matches every season). I also suspect that the signings of Forestieri, Hooper, Westwood, Reach, Bannan, Wallace, Pudil, Joao etc might have played their part in getting us to the playoffs twice.

 

I don't doubt his leadership qualities, but he is no longer good enough for the Championship, as evidenced by dropping into League One after becoming a free agent.

 

Edited by DJMortimer

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5 minutes ago, DJMortimer said:

 

Or in other words, last season showed we were better without Loovens in the team, so we'll make some weak excuses as to why the results don't count? :huh: 

 

Loovens did not start more than 31 league games in any of his 5 seasons at the club (ie. he missed around a third of the matches every season). I also suspect that the signings of Forestieri, Hooper, Westwood, Reach, Bannan, Wallace, Pudil, Joao etc might have played their part in getting us to the playoffs twice.

So you have given up with stats when it comes to Loovens and seasons he wasnt past it (2015-2016/2016-2017). I guess because it doesnt support your argument.

Edited by northderbyshireowl

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18 minutes ago, northderbyshireowl said:

So you have given up with stats when it comes to Loovens and seasons he wasnt past it. I guess before he doesnt support your argument.

 

Let's just summarise this nonsense...

 

You hastily suggested that we benefitted from Loovens' presence last season. The statistics do not support that, neither does his release, nor the fact that he ended up in League One or what seemed to be the broad consensus amongst the supporters.

 

Instead of just accepting this and moving on you instead chose to claim he played much more often during the playoff seasons and that last term could essentially be ignored. But in fact, he played a broadly similar number of league games each season (ranging between 20 and 31 starts in all five of them). 

 

You seem to imply that in just a few minutes I was able to put together a full analysis of our results game by game over these 5 seasons dependent on whether Loovens played or not and then discard the bulk of them? Really? Feel free to fill in these gaps if you like. It will take you a long time and I have no idea what it will show. But I was only responding to your inaccurate claims regarding 2017/8 anyway. There's no denying that overall he was a very good signing for us. Despite that though, he was not the difference maker in whether we made the playoffs or not.

 

Edited by DJMortimer

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4 minutes ago, DJMortimer said:

 

Let's just summarise this nonsense...

 

You hastily suggested that we benefitted from Loovens' presence last season. The statistics do not support that, neither does his release, nor the fact that he ended up in League One or what seemed to be the broad consensus amongst the supporters

 

 I never wrote that, you've drunk too much. I commented on his influence since he has been at the club. I acknowledged he was past it last season, and thats why Lees struggled. Sober up some and re-read what I posted in this thread.

Edited by northderbyshireowl
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1 minute ago, northderbyshireowl said:

 I never wrote that, you've drunk too much. I commented on his influence since he has been at the club. I acknowledged he was past it last season, and thats why Lees struggled. Sober up some and re-read what I posted in this thread.

 

Hmmm...

 

57 minutes ago, northderbyshireowl said:

Yup he didn't play many games for us last season, hence why we did so badly. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, DJMortimer said:

 

Hmmm...

 

Yup Loovens was past it and didnt play much and we therefore struggled in defense, how hard is that to understand? 

Edited by northderbyshireowl

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Just now, northderbyshireowl said:

Yup he was past it and didnt play much and we therefore struggled in defense, how hard is that to understand? 

 

That quoted sentence literally means that we did badly because he didn't play many games and cannot be correctly interpreted otherwise. If that's not what you meant then this whole discussion has been rather a waste of time hasn't it as we obviously agree about how he played last season?

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1 minute ago, DJMortimer said:

 

That quoted sentence literally means that we did badly because he didn't play many games and cannot be correctly interpreted otherwise. If that's not what you meant then this whole discussion has been rather a waste of time hasn't it as we obviously agree about how he played last season?

No it doesn't. Don't be sore because my Megson thread was so popular. Stop making it personal, and enjoy your evening.

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8 minutes ago, northderbyshireowl said:

No it doesn't.

 

Whatever.

 

8 minutes ago, northderbyshireowl said:

Stop making it personal, and enjoy your evening.

 

Hmmm...

 

24 minutes ago, northderbyshireowl said:

 I never wrote that, you've drunk too much...

 

...Sober up some and re-read what I posted in this thread.

 

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6 hours ago, Stoop said:

He’s an old fashioned centre half and he’s been asked to do something he can’t and is uncomfortable doing, as a result his confidence is shot to sh*t. Let’s not forget footballers are only human not robots

 

Really?? Is or has he ever been dominant in the air? Is or has he ever been good at tackling (other than to recover from players that are already past him, he’s good at last ditch tackles from side on or behind)?  Is or has he ever been able to lead the back line? 

 

I think Lees is a competent centerback that at times has looked great at this level. Those times though were next to hugely experienced players that masked his shortcomings. In the absence of Loovens (with his legs still working) or Westwood (of 2-3 years gone by) Lees is not much other than average. Average and I’d agree way out of form and confidence. 

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