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1 hour ago, DJMortimer said:

 

 

 

There can be no sugar coating this. I'm struggling to think of a series of errors quite as bad as this incident.

Worst mistake since Gerry Young in '66 cup final.

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1 minute ago, Hotten Owl said:

I can only see one other central defender in that list of facts you've provided. I'm not sure what that proves? Maybe stats compared to other central defenders would help. I'm only going on what I've seen of Tom Lees, which is a fair amount - and I've seen him make plenty of high quality, last ditch tackles, some goal saving, some not. I've seen him have 6, 7, 8, 9 out of 10 performances. Mostly 7's and 8's. Overall, I rate him as a genuinely quality defender. I don't particularly want to argue with you about it, it's more the hysterical nonsense posters that you get on here and facebook, twitter etc that don't have a clue. It just bothers me when a player is scapegoated.Tom Lees is a quality championship central defender. He's possibly been shown up by having to take extra responsibility on with younger players around him. 

As I edited in to my initial post:

"as an addition, whoscored.com has a handy feature where you can filter to view all Championship CB's and the number of tackles they average per 90 minutes. Tom Lees sits at 72nd out of a total of 87 Championship CB's."

He's compared to 87 other defenders there and comes out in the bottom 15%. Damning stuff IMO. 

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The most abject piece of defending I've witnessed in years. TL is not a ball playing CB and his distribution is poor. He's a decent old school CB when he is allowed to be. 

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I bet anyone 10£ that the Michael Jackson statue Fulham had has been more vocal than lees has on the pitch this season 

 

I'd have Stephen hawking as captain over lees and he's been brown bread 6 months

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Our defenders need to be told that their first and main job is to defend. 

Not fancying about on the ball , defending, clearing the lines and where necessary putting it in the stands.

Both goals tonight came from defenders not thinking as defenders.

I am convinced Thornily, who can be a decent defender, was thinking about getting the ball under control and trying to play and didn’t concentrate on what he should have been, get to bounce and clear it.

Lees is a good defender and should not be asked , or try to do things which he can’t do.

We desperately need to go 4 at the back so defenders can be left to simply defend, and a midfield three who can then get further up the pitch.

It is so obvious.

Edited by oldishowl
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5 minutes ago, StudentOwl said:

Good thing I also said 

Despite not being the tallest CB in the world, he's a relative beast in the air for someone his height. He's decent at tracking people and marking them well. 

And even initially said to you

He sure as hell can't tackle. 

 

I'm not doubting anything that you've said. He's positionally astute and commanding in the air. But as a defender you've got to be able to tackle too. And there is anecdotal as well as historical and current-season evidence to show that he struggles at it. Big time. Call me old fashioned, but I want my CB to be able to confidently deal with a situation when someone runs at him. 

Old fashioned....des Walker was decent at that.

Look I’m not blindly defending him, But he probably didn’t choose to be captain, he’s a good CB with the right players around him, he does NOT like playing football at the back and if you get your wish today, who the hell is going to step in to his shoes? 

Im more frustrated than most over what’s further up the pitch, and our  inability to get it away from the defence, keep and retain the ball, then create something.

 

off to bed now.....

 

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12 minutes ago, StudentOwl said:

As I edited in to my initial post:

"as an addition, whoscored.com has a handy feature where you can filter to view all Championship CB's and the number of tackles they average per 90 minutes. Tom Lees sits at 72nd out of a total of 87 Championship CB's."

He's compared to 87 other defenders there and comes out in the bottom 15%. Damning stuff IMO. 

Interesting, will have a look, find this stuff interesting.Presume other stats are more positive.  Not tonight though, had enough and need to head to bed! Still maintain he's a very decent Championship defender, whose positional, heading and tackling qualities would see him into the majority of the top 6 Championship sides teams. We'll have to agree to disagree about tackling for now...

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Our ability to look after the ball anywhere on the pitch is our main issue right now, we are very careless in possession, this is costing us points.

 

Individual mistakes will happen, you can't write off your most consistent performer because of one mistake, wake the f'k up.

 

In games this season we have defended well, in games we have attacked well, we look dangerous in a positive transition.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, StudentOwl said:

He has the heart of a mouse when you want your captain to have the heart of a lion. 

I remember a couple of seasons ago, during our first game under CC's reign at home to Bristol City, there was the most amazing stat that neither Loovens nor Lees made a tackle the entire game. Which you can argue is an execution of superb marshalling. What worries me, however, is that he can't tackle. At all. He's actually ruddy cack at it and he indeed cacks himself whenever anyone runs at him. Want proof? Look at their first goal today. Look at West Brom's second the other week. 

 

"Oh but that's not fair," I hear some Owlstalkers cry, "you can't take two isolated incidents". You're right, I can't. According to whoscored, he has made a total of 11 tackles this season in 13 Championship appearances. As a running total, that is lower than: Penney, Thorniley, Pelupessy, Bannan, Baker and Forestieri. If you look at it as an average per 90 minutes, that is lower than: van Aken, Fox, Baker, Penney, Onomah, Thorniley, Forestieri, Pelupessy, Pudil, Hector, Nuhiu, Matias, Bannan, Palmer and Hutchinson, and the same per 90 minutes as Adam Reach.  

 

It's not lack of ability that means he's so down that list. It's lack of guts.

Despite not being the tallest CB in the world, he's a relative beast in the air for someone his height. He's decent at tracking people and marking them well. But the second that ball is on the deck within 5 yards of him, either in his control or out of it, he's scared sh*tless. The second there's any sort of pressure, he reverts into a mute mouse. And I'm sick of our captain being like that.


To be fair using the same stat Aden Flint has made 0.5 tackles per game.. O'Connell and Egan from Pigs have also made less per game than Lees. Basically just shows that centre halfs don't tackle much. Actually of Lees attempted 0.9 attempted tackles per game, 0.8 have been successful. So he doesn't get beat that often.

Agree about the mute mouse stuff though. He needs to be a leader for us. If he can't do that then we need someone else to do it

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needs a strong voice at the side of him or behind him never been any good since westwood or loovens are not playing to tell him what to do

 

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9 minutes ago, trevdi9 said:

needs a strong voice at the side of him or behind him never been any good since westwood or loovens are not playing to tell him what to do

 

By the looks of it our captain needs a captain :rolleyes:

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3 hours ago, megsonstheman said:

if you had the choice of squaring it to palmer, would you? He's a terrible footballer

Palmer did his job tonight.  

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2 hours ago, OwlofOliveGrove said:

 

Absolutely, Thorniley screamed bloody murder for Penney to leave the ball and then went nowhere near the bounce!

 

Defending 101. NEVER LET IT BOUNCE

Tbf, quality touch from Besic.  I'm ok with that one.

 

I can't abide by us absolutely giving away goals, though.  The 2nd.

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How can we blame Keiron Lees when he's not even playing? 

 

Personally I think Tom Lee is the biggest issue for us at the minute. 

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Lees is a pretty decent Champ defender but what he shouldn't be trusted with is playing the ball out of defence (unless it's the long ball) or being captain. He's simply not skillful/vocal/inspirational enough. Every time there's a close up on his face during the TV coverage he's got the look of someone who is very nervous. And captains can't ever have that look....

Edited by Almat

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People need to get off Lees back. He’s a great defender at this level, and one of our best signings of the last 10 years. I blame the manager for his insistence on making him play the ball when he probably just wants to get rid

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9 hours ago, DJMortimer said:

 

When he gets the ball he has about 30 yards of the pitch to himself. There are any number of options open to him as clearly shown by Sky's Andy Hinchcliffe. Maybe the possibilities were limited by his colleagues but how you can make excuses for that is absolutely staggering. He had ages to think about it and ended up looking like he was petrified. Having dithered for so long he then panics and attempts to pass to his goalkeeper who is about 40 yards away and barely manages to get it a quarter of that distance. In the heat of the moment, all sorts of mistakes can be expected. But this was nothing of that nature. It was incompetent, indecisive, stupid and woeful.

 

Exactly, if I’m doubt, clear your lines not just casually pass it across the face of the goal.

 

We did this a few times last night too, completely unforgivable.

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I don’t mind centre halves playing from the back, but if you get into a situation like Lees did for the second goal, just smash the f*cking ball into row X of the North and re-group.

 

Never, never, ever play a blind pass back towards your own goal, f*cking ever.

 

Surely, a 27 year old professional central half doesn’t need telling that?

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