The role of the 3 in the 4-2-3-1

[briggowl]

Reach Joao and Mattias have been chosen to play in this role for the last 2 games and for my money have been absolutely ineffective. Joao, slightly better than Reach and Mattias but still none of them in the game for any significant time.

 

Bannan and Peluspessy/Onamah have been almost working as a 2 in Midfield and we're really struggling. It seems the option is to knock it around the back 4 and those 2, or boot it up to the top 3/4. Where are the creative runs form this 3? How many times have these 3 come short to help Bazza and Pelupessy/onamha? Joao more than the others, Reach and Mattias just seem to be floating around often alongside Flecth/Nuhui. If there role is up top with Fletcher/Nuhui then who is it that's tearing around pressing the defence and keeper? By and large Barry Bannan!!!! It's doing my head in. Run Mattias and Reach, be creative with it, run into space, run into the channels, give the opposition defence something to think about, my gran could mark you out of the last 2 games. You've offered practically NOTHING!!! I just don't understand what they think they're contributing!

 

They float around the game, easily marked, static, waiting for the ball to land perfectly at there feet. Some would point to Mattias scoring a goal. Yeah he did but as eluded to earlier, it was a long ball up to Fletch who took it on his chest and Mattias was almost in the way of Flectch to put it in. A tidy finish to be fair but all round Mattias needs to start influencing the game along with Reach. We can't afford passengers!

 

Rant Over. Sort it out Jos!!!!!!!

Edited September 20, 2018 by briggowl

[FreshOwl]

When you put it like that is really is that simple. As you’ve said it’s the ineffectiveness of those 3, who must be the least threatening or potent midfield combo in the division, and their lack of any sort of off-the-ball movement (well attacking wise) that will be our downfall if Jos persists with them 

 

Something about Joao’s attitude is off for me. His shuffling around the pitch dragging his feet infuriated me last night, Reach is like a hamster on a wheel and I honestly forget Matias is playing every time he’s started, could be in the dressing room filming some teeth whitening kit ad for all I know 

 

4-4-1-1

 

                   Dawson

palmer.      Lees.    Thorn.  Penney

                Baz.    Joey

    FF.                       Onomah/reach

                     Joao

                     Hooper

 

when this team is ready and fit Jos should go with it, and stick with it for a while 

 

[Guest mkowl]

Totally agree with the OP

 

Whilst we are constantly losing the midfield battle it's not going to be a good season

[Owlinator]

Bang on assesment 

[Tamworthowl]

Reach and Matias are making runs. Usually they are not being seen and the opportunity missed.

First few minutes yesterday: Fox across to Baker, down the channel to Matias, disappointing cross, but wins a corner. 

They (and Joao) do/did more runs, and the fullbacks get free out wide, but So many of the opportunities are missed and the long pass into the channel missed, even by Bannan.

I agree, our front four are way too static, but when runs are rarely picked out it must limit the enthusiasm to make the next run.

Its what Jos commented on after Saturday: other players than Bannan need to take responsibility to make the play.

[Shetland Owl]

we need to go back to 4-4-2

[victorturner]

10 hours ago, briggowl said:

Reach Joao and Mattias have been chosen to play in this role for the last 2 games and for my money have been absolutely ineffective. Joao, slightly better than Reach and Mattias but still none of them in the game for any significant time.

 

Bannan and Peluspessy/Onamah have been almost working as a 2 in Midfield and we're really struggling. It seems the option is to knock it around the back 4 and those 2, or boot it up to the top 3/4. Where are the creative runs form this 3? How many times have these 3 come short to help Bazza and Pelupessy/onamha? Joao more than the others, Reach and Mattias just seem to be floating around often alongside Flecth/Nuhui. If there role is up top with Fletcher/Nuhui then who is it that's tearing around pressing the defence and keeper? By and large Barry Bannan!!!! It's doing my head in. Run Mattias and Reach, be creative with it, run into space, run into the channels, give the opposition defence something to think about, my gran could mark you out of the last 2 games. You've offered practically NOTHING!!! I just don't understand what they think they're contributing!

 

They float around the game, easily marked, static, waiting for the ball to land perfectly at there feet. Some would point to Mattias scoring a goal. Yeah he did but as eluded to earlier, it was a long ball up to Fletch who took it on his chest and Mattias was almost in the way of Flectch to put it in. A tidy finish to be fair but all round Mattias needs to start influencing the game along with Reach. We can't afford passengers!

 

Rant Over. Sort it out Jos!!!!!!!

Jos only has the players available. Have to say that the three are not suited to the role you are right and could say Matias is a winger like reach and Joao is an upfront striker. None suited to the 3 in upper midfield.

Behind them without admittedly limited Pelupessy, the two do not have a tackle in them.

A dangerous lack of midfield quality very evident when playing away against a half decent team

 

[Bouncing Owl]

One thing which is absolutely evident is that Adam Reach should not be playing the number 10 role in a 4-2-3-1. Absolutely clear as day.

 

Ive mentioned this on another thread - we need to go to a more conventional 4-3-3 system where we have a designated defensive midfielder with 2 others ahead without a number 10. 

 

Reach needs to use his legs - his main attribute is his energy. I’d use him in wide attack but he may be vulnerable to being dropped given other options.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Bouncing Owl

[Dutch McLovin]

2 hours ago, Tamworthowl said:

Reach and Matias are making runs. Usually they are not being seen and the opportunity missed.

First few minutes yesterday: Fox across to Baker, down the channel to Matias, disappointing cross, but wins a corner. 

They (and Joao) do/did more runs, and the fullbacks get free out wide, but So many of the opportunities are missed and the long pass into the channel missed, even by Bannan.

I agree, our front four are way too static, but when runs are rarely picked out it must limit the enthusiasm to make the next run.

Its what Jos commented on after Saturday: other players than Bannan need to take responsibility to make the play.

This.

 

Matias makes some great runs in behind. He is rarely picked out. I think he played so advanced the last two games as he can see that theres been the opportunity to make these runs and get in, if he's found and we score a couple its a different story but we seem to be too slow and negative in position to spot this.

[NeonLeon]

Against Stoke I couldn’t believe Reach’s position while their midfield 3 flooded JP and Bannan for most of the game.

 

Joao somehow a million times less effective left of a 3 behind the striker, than he is left of a front 3. 

 

Definitely think we looked better in the 443 towards the end of last season. Reach in there with JP and Bannan. Then you just let the front 3 do what they want. We looked far more dangerous, and alot solider in midfield. 

[The Dukeries Owl]

Whichever way round the rest of the team is surely playing a midfield 3 of  Bannan, Pelupessy and Onamah should be the answer as we are getting overrun in midfield. If Joey does the "crappy stuff" it can release either Bannan or Onamah to be playing higher up the pitch, then we can press the other team, rather than being sat quaking in our own third waiting to be picked apart.

[spike1867]

35 minutes ago, Bouncing Owl said:

One thing which is absolutely evident is that Adam Reach should not be playing the number 10 role in a 4-2-3-1. Absolutely clear as day.

 

Ive mentioned this on another thread - we need to go to a more conventional 4-3-3 system where we have a designated defensive midfielder with 2 others ahead without a number 10. 

 

Reach needs to use his legs - his main attribute is his energy. I’d use him in wide attack but he may be vulnerable to being dropped given other options.

 

Nail on head, sort of.  Its not Reach playing the number 10 role that is wrong, its his starting position.  Its too far forward.  I've no problem him playing the number 10, but he has to start closer to Bannan and his midfield partner.  He needs to be running from alongside them into the space between opposition midfielders and defenders and not taking up station in that area to start.  If thats what Jos wants his no. 10 to do then that is where Bannan should play, sort of Luka Modric in style.  Reach needs to run from deeper because thats when defensive midfielders struggle with him because they aren't equipped to deal with people running past them.  Reach isn't going to lift his head and play the killer pass, he's going to give it and go and arrive late in the box.  My head still tells me that if we play one holding midfielder and a box to box in DCM and Bannan in the number 10, we will start to put teams to the test.  Bannan is the most intelligent footballer we have, his movement, speed of thought and balance are his attributes.  I'd like him to score more, but this season I think he's started to put that right.

 

I agree with the other posts too.  Matias does make some good runs, but what seems to be happening is that Bannan is playing deeper, when he receives the ball, the run is made from whoever because they know Bannan can deliver those sort of balls.  Trouble is, Hollywood balls are exactly that, showpieces.  I'd much rather us play through midfield and see Bannan on the ball around the oppositions side of the centre circle and then look for the pass and the run from there.

 

The problem last night was that Fox and Baker didn't do what Penney and Palmer have been doing, which is being available higher up the pitch.  It means that when Joao and Matias go outside to in, as they are trying to support the striker in the box, there was no real out ball to the flanks.  I'm not saying that they need to burst into the last third, but they need to give the midfield trio the option.  The opposition full backs will naturally tuck in if Matias and Joao try to support the striker, leaving gaps out wide. 

 

I think it has to be either Reach or Onomah, not both.  On last night, I'd go with Onomah.

 

Furthermore, I'm a bit concerned about Tom Lees.  At one stage last night, he almost moved aside to let Grabban run past him into the channel rather than try and get to the ball first and put it out of play.  We'll see how Thorniley is, but judging by the substitution last night, he sees Pudil as his other left sided centre half, so it looks like Hector is going to be right sided.  If Lees continues like this then I think Jos has no option but to drop him.  Its not like we haven't seen this before.  Tom Lees needs a leader alongside him.  I noticed Bannan got stuck into him last night at one stage in the second half.

 

                                           Dawson

                                  Lees            Thorniley

    Palmer                                                                  Penney       

 

                                 Onomah     Pelupessy

 

       Matias                         Bannan                          Joao

 

                                          Fletcher 

 

 

I'll go back to my old adage...buzzer, floater, spreader, runner.  Last night we missed the buzzer. 

[oldishowl]

We do need to move Reach from that daft position. Either play him as a proper midfielder or as a wide attacker. And maybe dropping him for a game might give him the kick up the back side he needs as well.

 

The real problem is we simply are too deep all the time. We drop off teams too far and let them get into our half far too easily. This means our 3 are far too deep. Using Joao as an example, did he actually get into their box last night in open play? He spent more time playing fullback.

 

We then compound the problem by trying to play out from the back.

We are not good enough to do it. Again, using Joao as an example, he was having balls played to his feet with his back to goal 25 yards in his own half.

 

We basically let them play all night in our final third of the pitch.

Putting balls into our box at will , it was only a matter of time until they scored.

 

So for Villa play a proper midfield three, I would go with Onomah, Joey and Bannan.

Play Reach as a wide attacker .

Play further up the pitch, press higher , get the midfield 3 further up the pitch so the pressing forwards are not isolated and go long when required.

 

We will lose easily at Villa if we let players like Bolasie and Abrahams play all game in our final third 

[A E Neuman NYowl]

1 hour ago, oldishowl said:

We do need to move Reach from that daft position. Either play him as a proper midfielder or as a wide attacker. And maybe dropping him for a game might give him the kick up the back side he needs as well.

 

The real problem is we simply are too deep all the time. We drop off teams too far and let them get into our half far too easily. This means our 3 are far too deep. Using Joao as an example, did he actually get into their box last night in open play? He spent more time playing fullback.

 

We then compound the problem by trying to play out from the back.

We are not good enough to do it. Again, using Joao as an example, he was having balls played to his feet with his back to goal 25 yards in his own half.

 

We basically let them play all night in our final third of the pitch.

Putting balls into our box at will , it was only a matter of time until they scored.

 

So for Villa play a proper midfield three, I would go with Onomah, Joey and Bannan.

Play Reach as a wide attacker .

Play further up the pitch, press higher , get the midfield 3 further up the pitch so the pressing forwards are not isolated and go long when required.

 

We will lose easily at Villa if we let players like Bolasie and Abrahams play all game in our final third 

Some great observations there, at one point last night Joao left his marker in no-mans land with a great dummy and turn, trouble was he was just outside our own box, not even in the opposition half where he can do some damage.

[g-owls]

Hooper and Forestieri are the key.

 

Hooper is more than capable of playing in the central role of the three behind the striker. He was outstanding when Carlos went with the diamond and played him at the tip of that.

 

Forestieri, obviously the left side of the three. As for the right hand side, I’d probably be inclined to go with Reach.

[Inspector Lestrade]

Whatever formation we play it will be improved by playing FF 

[oldishowl]

I suspect the problem with FF after Brentford was that Jos is looking for his wide strikers to play like Joao and Matias did last night.

ie spending more time acting as full backs and FF didn't fancy that as Jos alluded to with his playing for the team comment.

He will track back to some extent but no way will he do it as much as say Joao last night.

And to be honest he nor they should be asked to.

 

Anyway unless things change I see interesting times ahead with FF

[Ash77]

6 hours ago, Bouncing Owl said:

One thing which is absolutely evident is that Adam Reach should not be playing the number 10 role in a 4-2-3-1. Absolutely clear as day.

 

Ive mentioned this on another thread - we need to go to a more conventional 4-3-3 system where we have a designated defensive midfielder with 2 others ahead without a number 10. 

 

Reach needs to use his legs - his main attribute is his energy. I’d use him in wide attack but he may be vulnerable to being dropped given other options.

Agree with this, put reach on left of a midfield 3 or even left or right of a front 3 but not central

 

 

[Pale Rider]

How about picking your best players instead of being complete cheeky monkey.

[victorturner]

12 hours ago, Bouncing Owl said:

One thing which is absolutely evident is that Adam Reach should not be playing the number 10 role in a 4-2-3-1. Absolutely clear as day.

 

Ive mentioned this on another thread - we need to go to a more conventional 4-3-3 system where we have a designated defensive midfielder with 2 others ahead without a number 10. 

 

Reach needs to use his legs - his main attribute is his energy. I’d use him in wide attack but he may be vulnerable to being dropped given other options.

Good points here!