Sheffield Wednesday Fans Forum - Overview

[Dick_Turpin]

7 minutes ago, ChinaOwl said:

 

The owner does not appoint liquidators. Creditors petition for administration or liquidation to recover debts.

 

You cannot just decide you have had enough and abandon debts!

You can if you can no longer operate the company as a going concern. In fact you have a duty to put it through some sort of insolvency proceedings to minimise threats to potential future creditors.  

[ChinaOwl]

Just now, rickygoo said:

You can if you can no longer operate the company as a going concern. In fact you have a duty to put it through some sort of insolvency proceedings to minimise threats to potential future creditors.  

 

Aye, as a very last resort. You can't just walk away because you've had enough.

[sternlad]

Thank you for the summary of last night’s forum, very succinct. Did anyone raise the question of Westwood’s position at the club now and in future? These are worrying times for the club and its supporters, I can’t help but wonder about the atmosphere at S6 on Saturday if we go a goal down and people have had a pot or two. I also find it hard to believe that a professional football club would sign players according to the fans wishes, that’s just...well..unprofessional! I really hope things improve on the pitch although hearing that players didn’t want to play last season is more than worrying, aren’t they supposed to be professional too...the whole club seems to operate on an amateurish level at the moment. No corporate side, merchandising slack at best and recruitment not what it ought to be...Arkwright could run it for him and get more profit! “G-G-Granville, fetch your broom!” Sorry to be negative but I like a lot of other exiles are worried from a distance!

[Paul..]

4 minutes ago, prowl said:

The club will be set up as a company. If DC has decent accountants they will be dressing up the money he is 'investing' as loans. That way if we ever make a profit he can pay the 'debts' back and not pay tax.

 

 

IIRC new ownership rules a few years back stopped that being possible?

[alanharper]

23 minutes ago, adelphi1867 said:

Were you saying that when he brought Bannan, FF, Hooper, Joao, extended the contracts of Westwood, Lees, Lee etc

 

The first year was great and we recruited well.  The problem was the year after the play off final until last summer's transfer window when instead of adding the couple of real quality players to improve the team and push us to the next level and compete for automatic promotion like Brighton did , he spent millions on fees and wages for the likes of Abdi, Fletcher, Rhodes, Fox, Boyd, Van Aken, Reach, Emmanuelson, Jones, and loaning but not using McManaman and Buckley.

 

Reach aside not one of them was a success or a first team regular and two years and £30-40m later we still haven't even added the pace that we so blatantly and obviously lacked back then. Arguably Abdi and Fletcher were statements of intent and you could say their long term injuries were unforseen, but it was an absolutely ludicrous decision to give them both a 4 year contract on high wages at their age.

 

[Paul..]

2 minutes ago, alanharper said:

 

The first year was great and we recruited well.  The problem was the year after the play off final until last summer's transfer window when instead of adding the couple of real quality players to improve the team and push us to the next level and compete for automatic promotion like Brighton did , he spent millions on fees and wages for the likes of Abdi, Fletcher, Rhodes, Fox, Boyd, Van Aken, Reach, Emmanuelson, Jones, and loaning but not using McManaman and Buckley.

 

Reach aside not one of them was a success or a first team regular and two years and £30-40m later we still haven't even added the pace that we so blatantly and obviously lacked back then. Arguably Abdi and Fletcher were statements of intent and you could say their long term injuries were unforseen, but it was an absolutely ludicrous decision to give them both a 4 year contract on high wages at their age.

 

 

Second season the recruitment strategy was "well last year a bit of inexperience cost us promotion because the team froze on the big stage, so let's sign 3 or 4 older, experienced, established players" that's what happened and whilst on paper it was a sound strategy it massively backfired, problem is you aren't going to sign Fletcher and Abdi to the league below where they are unless you give them the carrot of a longer contract and the security that brings them, this was the last lucrative contract for both of them.

Edited August 7, 2018 by פɹᴉɯqɐɹᴉɐu

[ChinaOwl]

1 minute ago, פɹᴉɯqɐɹᴉɐu said:

 

Second season the recruitment strategy was "well last year a bit of inexperience cost us promotion because the team froze on the big stage, so let's sign 3 or 4 older, experienced, established players" that's what happened and whilst on paper it was a sound strategy it massively backfired, problem is you aren't going to sign Fletcher and Abdi to the league below where they are unless you give them the carrot of a longer contract and the security that brings them, this was the last lucrative contract for both of them.

 

It was worse than that. After the play-off final defeat, it was abundantly clear that the weaknesses were a dominant centre half, strong defensive midfield player and perhaps a bit of pace out wide. Even to this day, none of those have been adequately addressed. Yet millions was spaffed on players that were not really needed and most of them sat in the stands whilst Carlos continued to, by and large, play exactly the same team that got to Wembley. A ludicrous transfer policy.

[room0035]

28 minutes ago, prowl said:

We might need to offload them but if no one wants to buy them what do you suggest? We can't force them to leave, they have legally binding contracts.

 

The only way out of the mire is to sell the players we can sell but that would inevitably be for less than they are really worth. I'd do that to safeguard the future of the club but it wouldn't be popular.

 

These days clubs can't survive without a rich person funding them. Get relegated and it gets worse because the TV money is less. Stay in the Championship and you need to find £6M or £7M to get bye much more if you want to be successful.

 

If we are losing £20M per year We probably need to sell FF and another top player to get things back under control for next year.

Abdi has been a disaster why have we not come to an agreement with the play to pay up the last year of his contract but say 50% of that figures probably saving the club in the region of £1/2m.

 

But no our policy is to wait till then end of the season, bury our head in the sand and hope for the best.

[room0035]

50 minutes ago, פɹᴉɯqɐɹᴉɐu said:

 

 

Key part highlighted.

Thanks for that but due to the financial planning so far of the chairman i don't tend to believe him.

 

If he is sponsoring us with companies that are shells such as D Taxis then why it his daddy who owns one of the biggest tuna production business in the world not willing to sponsor his son to help him out. Why is the stadium not sponsored even if we only get a small amount it is more than we are currently getting which is ZERO.

 

Why can DC not buy all 28 corporate boxes and then given them to be used by charitable entities that would get in over £1m a season at his £40,000 + vat prices, i am sure if argued to the FL as helping charity's it would be allowed. But no instead we will stumble along hoping we get promoted and bust. 

 

[striker]

While respectful of opinions, some opinions I shared in part until last night, it's easy to criticise but even with fan knowledge have limited understanding of the football world and how ro run a football club. Unless having millions of disposable income to buy the club and support losses,   getting to the point where critisism of every decision is unhelpful.

 

I don't agree entirely wih DC"s opinions but it comes down to this, do I trust him to run the club?  He openly said he would walk away if not wanted, which I think would be a bad thing for us as I do think his intentions are well placed.

 

I think we could have done better with recruitment, but myself included thought at the time  we were signing these players, would be good enough to challenge  for promotion (obviously not Fox, that one still baffles me) therefore understand the rationale. It is easier in hindsight to evaluate this and some signings  were clearly not good recruitment decisions.

 

Sponsorship is not a vanity project, vast differences were quoted in what sponsors  were offering and what DC pays for sponsorship, which is a method of investing maximum amounts in the club. I get the point about cumulative benefit of smaller amounts, but why sell our club cheaply? It was an interesting point DC proposed about seeking value and supporting the club, still undecided but can appreciate his points that support shouldn't necessarily be correlated wih value, but neither do I think there should be a minimum threshold  to support. I think there is opportunity to find the balance he discussed.

 

FFP is what it is, an arbitrary external constraint which we are working with and in negotiation with EFL.  Not a good situation by any means and do think the fans deserved some information before committing to season tickets, but also appeciate the need for discretion. On balance I think  I'd  rather  breach FFP and watch FF, Bannan etc than comply and watch Darren Potter, Ola Tidman etc.

 

I disagreed with the decision to decline BBC broadcasting rights offer on the basis it provides an essential community service. But I do think the BBC are to blame and understand the rationale for the decision and supportive of this. This was my opinion before the forum and was well explained and a principled decision I can support.

 

Pricing has been a big issue for me and directly correlated to the value I saw on the pitch. While I'm not entirely convinced by DC's supporters v customers argument prepared to bite the bullet and stop moaning. Of course I'll  still moan on Match days if we lose but will try not to correlate my misery with the amount of money it has cost me and appreciative that  ticket revenue is still a moderate (yet essential) drop in the ocean towards running costs.

 

All in all it was a good forum where communication from the club was better, something I think we can improve on with day to day operations. 

 

The outcome is we are fizzed with FFP, stuck with the players we have,  but ultimately that's not something we can affect, we rolled the dice,  enjoyed the ride and now have to waste a season or two before having another go. Apparently  EFL think this is good for the competitiveness of the league?

 

One thing I will say is that I'm 100% behind DC in that the EFL in applying this arbitrary limit do not take football inflation into account.  A player who cost £2m three years ago woud now cost  £8m+ so it is increasingly difficult to construct a competitive squad and comply with FFP.

 

The reality is we've been a mid table yo yo club between the lower  divisions over the last 15 years, with only a couple of seasons  troubling the  premier league promotion mix,  so of we can stay mid table while FFP nonsense is resolved can go again, wiser in the knowledge of our mistakes think we will be ok in the long term.

 

I admire DC's optimism but think we can forget any fantasy of promotion in the next 2 to 3 seasons, use next summer to  release players and evolve the squad in the manner Jos talked about and develop a squad which is able to challenge again. This is perhaps the main disconnect I have from DC"s vision in that I think change is necessary and sometimes good to release players, if of course as he stated we are able to replace them. 

 

 

[ChinaOwl]

1 minute ago, room0035 said:

Thanks for that but due to the financial planning so far of the chairman i don't tend to believe him.

 

If he is sponsoring us with companies that are shells such as D Taxis then why it his daddy who owns one of the biggest tuna production business in the world not willing to sponsor his son to help him out. Why is the stadium not sponsored even if we only get a small amount it is more than we are currently getting which is ZERO.

 

Why can DC not buy all 28 corporate boxes and then given them to be used by charitable entities that would get in over £1m a season at his £40,000 + vat prices, i am sure if argued to the FL as helping charity's it would be allowed. But no instead we will stumble along hoping we get promoted and bust. 

 

 

His dad does not own Thai Union Group. It is a publicly listed company of which the Chansiri family collectively own 20.3% of the shares. His father and brother hold salaried positions on the PLC board.

[Dick_Turpin]

2 minutes ago, striker said:

Sponsorship is not a vanity project, vast differences were quoted in what sponsors  were offering and what DC pays for sponsorship, which is a method of investing maximum amounts in the club.

And when it comes to FFP that vast difference is discounted because it's an obvious way round the regulations. What we need to do is work out why other clubs can get good sponsors and we can't and then fix it. 

[Paul..]

4 minutes ago, striker said:

While respectful of opinions, some opinions I shared in part until last night, it's easy to criticise but even with fan knowledge have limited understanding of the football world and how ro run a football club. Unless having millions of disposable income to buy the club and support losses,   getting to the point where critisism of every decision is unhelpful.

 

I don't agree entirely wih DC"s opinions but it comes down to this, do I trust him to run the club?  He openly said he would walk away if not wanted, which I think would be a bad thing for us as I do think his intentions are well placed.

 

I think we could have done better with recruitment, but myself included thought at the time  we were signing these players, would be good enough to challenge  for promotion (obviously not Fox, that one still baffles me) therefore understand the rationale. It is easier in hindsight to evaluate this and some signings  were clearly not good recruitment decisions.

 

Sponsorship is not a vanity project, vast differences were quoted in what sponsors  were offering and what DC pays for sponsorship, which is a method of investing maximum amounts in the club. I get the point about cumulative benefit of smaller amounts, but why sell our club cheaply? It was an interesting point DC proposed about seeking value and supporting the club, still undecided but can appreciate his points that support shouldn't necessarily be correlated wih value, but neither do I think there should be a minimum threshold  to support. I think there is opportunity to find the balance he discussed.

 

FFP is what it is, an arbitrary external constraint which we are working with and in negotiation with EFL.  Not a good situation by any means and do think the fans deserved some information before committing to season tickets, but also appeciate the need for discretion. On balance I think  I'd  rather  breach FFP and watch FF, Bannan etc than comply and watch Darren Potter, Ola Tidman etc.

 

I disagreed with the decision to decline BBC broadcasting rights offer on the basis it provides an essential community service. But I do think the BBC are to blame and understand the rationale for the decision and supportive of this. This was my opinion before the forum and was well explained and a principled decision I can support.

 

Pricing has been a big issue for me and directly correlated to the value I saw on the pitch. While I'm not entirely convinced by DC's supporters v customers argument prepared to bite the bullet and stop moaning. Of course I'll  still moan on Match days if we lose but will try not to correlate my misery with the amount of money it has cost me and appreciative that  ticket revenue is still a moderate (yet essential) drop in the ocean towards running costs.

 

All in all it was a good forum where communication from the club was better, something I think we can improve on with day to day operations. 

 

The outcome is we are fizzed with FFP, stuck with the players we have,  but ultimately that's not something we can affect, we rolled the dice,  enjoyed the ride and now have to waste a season or two before having another go. Apparently  EFL think this is good for the competitiveness of the league?

 

One thing I will say is that I'm 100% behind DC in that the EFL in applying this arbitrary limit do not take football inflation into account.  A player who cost £2m three years ago woud now cost  £8m+ so it is increasingly difficult to construct a competitive squad and comply with FFP.

 

The reality is we've been a mid table yo yo club between the lower  divisions over the last 15 years, with only a couple of seasons  troubling the  premier league promotion mix,  so of we can stay mid table while FFP nonsense is resolved can go again, wiser in the knowledge of our mistakes think we will be ok in the long term.

 

I admire DC's optimism but think we can forget any fantasy of promotion in the next 2 to 3 seasons, use next summer to  release players and evolve the squad in the manner Jos talked about and develop a squad which is able to challenge again. This is perhaps the main disconnect I have from DC"s vision in that I think change is necessary and sometimes good to release players, if of course as he stated we are able to replace them. 

 

 

 

Excellent post, agree with most of it.

[Sergeant Tibbs]

2 hours ago, @owlstalk said:

 

 

No comment mate - simply for the reason that if it's the fans fault and social media's fault that we're in this mess then I'm bowing out and not commenting any longer. I'm just going to be a silent moderator now

That's a shame as you generally offer a balanced opinion.

 

[room0035]

4 minutes ago, ChinaOwl said:

 

His dad does not own Thai Union Group. It is a publicly listed company of which the Chansiri family collectively own 20.3% of the shares. His father and brother hold salaried positions on the PLC board.

Yes and if you owned 20% of a large conglomerate and a way existed to improve you exposure to the UK market and as a by product help out a family member why would you not do it, in the scheme of things its a lot more legit that setting up a taxi company with no taxis to provide sponsorship to a football club. Or did i miss something.

[Dick_Turpin]

1 minute ago, פɹᴉɯqɐɹᴉɐu said:

On balance I think  I'd  rather  breach FFP and watch FF, Bannan etc than comply and watch Darren Potter, Ola Tidman etc.

This is the big unknown. It may be because of breaching FFP that's exactly what we end up with. Fingers crossed. 

[Paul..]

1 minute ago, rickygoo said:

This is the big unknown. It may be because of breaching FFP that's exactly what we end up with. Fingers crossed. 

 

It's weird to get notified that you've been quoted to come back into the thread and discover you were quoted saying someone else's words!

[ChinaOwl]

1 minute ago, room0035 said:

Yes and if you owned 20% of a large conglomerate and a way existed to improve you exposure to the UK market and as a by product help out a family member why would you not do it, in the scheme of things its a lot more legit that setting up a taxi company with no taxis to provide sponsorship to a football club. Or did i miss something.

 

Because:

 

1. The Chansiris have no authority to make a spending decision like that without firstly receiving ratification of the board and then the general shareholders.
    
2. It would have no real value to T.U.G. because it is not a recognisable brand (it is a group of autonomously operated subsidiaries) so would not see a return on investment.

[Ethel The Tree]

Thanks for your account  @striker

Personally, these are the posts I find the most helpful

[room0035]

Just now, ChinaOwl said:

 

Because:

 

1. The Chansiris have no authority to make a spending decision like that without firstly receiving ratification of the board and then the general shareholders.
    
2. It would have no real value to T.U.G. because it is not a recognisable brand (it is a group of autonomously operated subsidiaries) so would not see a return on investment.

The John West Hillsbrough Stadium 

 

Or even the John West stadium and drop the Hillsborough name that is know around the world for the worst footballing disaster. Companies re-brand all the time to improve their image why not us.