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5 minutes ago, Whatahoot said:

Yep that's about right and fine may be paid over a number of years too.

As I said, a really seriously wealthy owner may well just pay it off in one go up front. I think something like that , ie finding an immediate £20m to settle a clubs commitment, would be difficult for our owner to find in one go imo.

Also, having a £20m liability sitting on the clubs accounts, would not be particularly attractive to any future buyer of a club, with any such commitment to take on. Sort of like paying for someone else's previous overspending.

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3 minutes ago, Hookowl said:

 

One thing I don't get. If it's the club that's fined and not the owner personally. If the fine is paid in full does not that amount count towards FFP or P&S in the year it's paid ?

Well its the same thing if the owner owns the club outright. No it will not count against the next 3 year period of FFP, as that is calculated on accumulated trading losses not capital injections.

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6 minutes ago, oh_weds_we_love_you said:

 

Cheers mate, very useful.

 

If Mr Chansiri has the cash, I'm even more curious now as to why he doesn't stick 2 fingers up to FFP. He could blow £50m this transfer window and our punishment - if promotion failed - wouldn't be anywhere near as severe as QPR. So, breaking FFP would cost him a modest fine (by rich people's standard), a one transfer window embargo (we seem to be in a self-imposed one now anyway), and he'd have to turn some loan to the company into equity - and that would be worse case scenario given the precedent set with QPR.

 

Makes me even more sure that Mr Chansiri is up to the limit he's prepared to invest (fair enough!).

That's about my take on it, Mr C is taking a different view on things, having chucked cash at it and failed. He is literally looking to cut his losses quickly, keeping any further investment to a minimum whilst he does so. He may have run out of enthusiasm and or cash for this venture, who knows ? He may be keeping his powder dry for another tilt in season 19/20, who knows. He certainly continues to try and extract every penny from supporters to prop up his efforts. The last thing he needs is a big FFP fine and costs.

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9 minutes ago, Whatahoot said:

Well its the same thing if the owner owns the club outright. No it will not count against the next 3 year period of FFP, as that is calculated on accumulated trading losses not capital injections.

 

But I thought that QPR had a capital injection from the owner to write off part of their debts but this was found to contravene FFP and that was what they based their appeal on and lost.

Or am I missing something ?

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14 minutes ago, oh_weds_we_love_you said:

 

Cheers mate, very useful.

 

If Mr Chansiri has the cash, I'm even more curious now as to why he doesn't stick 2 fingers up to FFP. He could blow £50m this transfer window and our punishment - if promotion failed - wouldn't be anywhere near as severe as QPR. So, breaking FFP would cost him a modest fine (by rich people's standard), a one transfer window embargo (we seem to be in a self-imposed one now anyway), and he'd have to turn some loan to the company into equity - and that would be worse case scenario given the precedent set with QPR.

 

Makes me even more sure that Mr Chansiri is up to the limit he's prepared to invest (fair enough!).

Its all about the relativity of what is mega rich in football chairmen terms. Compared to a lot of them, Mr C is ,imo, to be considered modestly wealthy.He does not have the wealth to continue to chuck cash at it. He would need his wider family behind him to do that and that looks like a remote possibility.

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2 minutes ago, Hookowl said:

 

But I thought that QPR had a capital injection from the owner to write off part of their debts but this was found to contravene FFP and that was what they based their appeal on and lost.

Or am I missing something ?

Their debts/losses grew because of transfer fees and high wages in the first place. That is at the centre of FFP, that a wealthy chairman cannot simply ram money into the club to offset large losses. Clubs have to operate within their trading means, taking into account transfer spending and wages.. To try an even the playingfield.That is apart from the parachute payments for relegated clubs from the Prem.

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3 hours ago, oh_weds_we_love_you said:

Broken down;

  • £17m fine.
  • £3m EFL costs.
  • Shareholders capitalise £22m of outstanding loans (no idea what that means!).
  • 2019 January transfer embargo.

Rumoured time for payment agreed to be over 10 financial years.

 

Let's not forget this was a club that didn't only break the rules, actually smashed the rules to pieces, and have taken years appealing the initial decision.

 

If, say Wednesday, were to break FFP rules by a fraction of what QPR did, and fess up and pay the fine, the punishment won't be anywhere near as severe.

 

I'd like to know where this money goes - what do the EFL do with it?

They all go on a jolly to Bermuda or a carribean cruise. What else would football leaders do? :ph34r:

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19 minutes ago, Whatahoot said:

That's about my take on it, Mr C is taking a different view on things, having chucked cash at it and failed. He is literally looking to cut his losses quickly, keeping any further investment to a minimum whilst he does so. He may have run out of enthusiasm and or cash for this venture, who knows ? He may be keeping his powder dry for another tilt in season 19/20, who knows. He certainly continues to try and extract every penny from supporters to prop up his efforts. The last thing he needs is a big FFP fine and costs.

 

I guess there is a third option - Mr Chansiri considers himself an honourable man and doesn't want to break the rules of the game.

 

I find it interesting that he's previously said "he would if he could" in relation to keep putting more money in. He's referrenced FFP at the same time as those comments, but I'm wondering if he's made is sound that way/confused in translation when in reality is means "that's my investment done, I don't want to invest further".

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3 minutes ago, Whatahoot said:

Their debts/losses grew because of transfer fees and high wages in the first place. That is at the centre of FFP, that a wealthy chairman cannot simply ram money into the club to offset large losses. Clubs have to operate within their trading means, taking into account transfer spending and wages.. To try an even the playingfield.That is apart from the parachute payments for relegated clubs from the Prem.

 

I see what your saying but it still seems the wrong way to go about it regarding punishment.

It's not ok for a wealthy owner to prop up a clubs bad trading (which I get), but it's ok for said wealthy owner to pay a massive fine. Possibly not an even playing field if the owner is mega rich.

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1 minute ago, Hookowl said:

 

I see what your saying but it still seems the wrong way to go about it regarding punishment.

It's not ok for a wealthy owner to prop up a clubs bad trading (which I get), but it's ok for said wealthy owner to pay a massive fine. Possibly not an even playing field if the owner is mega rich.

That is a reasonable take on it. Money, as they say, talks. No doubt about that.

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I'm no businessman and it's easy to say when it's not my money, but if I'd invested £150m in a football club with the prospect of getting promoted and £200m/year and the prestige as a result of that, the potential of a £17m fine (absolute max, we wouldn't get the same punishment as QPR because they really did take the p*ss) if we didn't get promoted wouldn't be put off continuing my investment.

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6 minutes ago, oh_weds_we_love_you said:

 

I guess there is a third option - Mr Chansiri considers himself an honourable man and doesn't want to break the rules of the game.

 

I find it interesting that he's previously said "he would if he could" in relation to keep putting more money in. He's referrenced FFP at the same time as those comments, but I'm wondering if he's made is sound that way/confused in translation when in reality is means "that's my investment done, I don't want to invest further".

I think he is an honourable man and some of what he says does get tangled in translation. I see him as a little naïve, not on general business matters but on English footballing matters and cultural things attached .I just simply think he underestimated the task in hand upon purchase and has played catch up ever since. It could have been a whole lot different had his first year gamble paid off. I wander what his main regrets are over the last 3 seasons ?

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6 minutes ago, oh_weds_we_love_you said:

I'm no businessman and it's easy to say when it's not my money, but if I'd invested £150m in a football club with the prospect of getting promoted and £200m/year and the prestige as a result of that, the potential of a £17m fine (absolute max, we wouldn't get the same punishment as QPR because they really did take the p*ss) if we didn't get promoted wouldn't be put off continuing my investment.

They say that is the mark of a good businessman, knowing when to call a stop and withdraw to fight for another day. When does it become gambling ? Chasing losses is a mugs game really. So many things cannot be foreseen.

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2 minutes ago, Whatahoot said:

They say that is the mark of a good businessman, knowing when to call a stop and withdraw to fight for another day. When does it become gambling ? Chasing losses is a mugs game really. So many things cannot be foreseen.

 

Indeed, a calculated risk though to me says "we aren't that far away". To me that would be worth continuing my investment. If we were still a million miles away, then my answer would be different I guess.

 

I wonder if Mr Chansiri thinks "we aren't that far away" and thinks we still have a good chance without further investment needed from himself...

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20 minutes ago, Hookowl said:

 

I see what your saying but it still seems the wrong way to go about it regarding punishment.

It's not ok for a wealthy owner to prop up a clubs bad trading (which I get), but it's ok for said wealthy owner to pay a massive fine. Possibly not an even playing field if the owner is mega rich.

But we need to consider, QPR cheated their way into the Premier League thus earning multi-millions for their short stay there plus all the parachute payments. The fact they jizzed it all away is their own fault and lets remember, The EFL said from the outset they would be subject to FFP fines once they fell back within the Football League. Maybe they should have kept some money to one side to pay for any potential punishment. I have no sympathy.

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8 minutes ago, Whatahoot said:

They say that is the mark of a good businessman, knowing when to call a stop and withdraw to fight for another day. When does it become gambling ? Chasing losses is a mugs game really. So many things cannot be foreseen.

Heard a quote on the radio today which I thought was very good. "The best way to make a small fortune in football is to start off with a big fortune!"

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I'm sure Chansiri (and other equally rich owners in the championship) are crunching the figures as I type to see if it's worth the gamble!

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2 minutes ago, oh_weds_we_love_you said:

 

Indeed, a calculated risk though to me says "we aren't that far away". To me that would be worth continuing my investment. If we were still a million miles away, then my answer would be different I guess.

 

I wonder if Mr Chansiri thinks "we aren't that far away" and thinks we still have a good chance without further investment needed from himself...

I think that he is light on experience to draw on and has not got that "experienced" footballing voice in his ear so he can really assess the risk or even see all the many pitfalls..I really think he is in a quandary over the direction he will take on it all. It could in a number of ways.

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18 minutes ago, Whatahoot said:

I think he is an honourable man and some of what he says does get tangled in translation. I see him as a little naïve, not on general business matters but on English footballing matters and cultural things attached .I just simply think he underestimated the task in hand upon purchase and has played catch up ever since. It could have been a whole lot different had his first year gamble paid off. I wander what his main regrets are over the last 3 seasons ?

Sacking the transfer committee and subsequently taking the advice to sign Abdi, Jones, Fletch, Rhodes, Winall, Boyd all on big money and long term contracts. Realising the best team today is still pretty much his first seasons investments!!! It still makes me cry!!!!

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2 hours ago, Brommers said:

Heard a quote on the radio today which I thought was very good. "The best way to make a small fortune in football is to start off with a big fortune!"

 

I think Lord Sugar came up with something like that, seems very true

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