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1 hour ago, cookeh said:

 

'Football has changed' - lovely smokescreen.

That's a nice way of saying something without actually saying anything.

None of them are becoming league one players more and more each day.

That's just silly hyperbole.

 

There's very obvious reasons why Rhodes has struggled so far.

There's an obvious reason Fletch hasn't had an impressive season.

There's obvious reasons that Winnall is in the position he is as well.

 

But no.. let's go for "football has changed". It's vague enough and silly enough that people might buy it instead of just accepting the blindingly obvious. 10/10.

 

 

 

Any need for that sneery, snidey reply to a post? why can't we just have a normal discussion on here?

 

Anyway, what would you say is the very obvious reason Rhodes has struggled so far is? Fletcher has been injured, so who knows what kind of impact he would have had in the second half of the season.

 

Rhodes failed to impress Carlos, then with a clean slate failed to impress Jos enough to get into the side ahead of Nuhu and Joao.

 

For me it seems the demands of the Championship don't match up with Rhodes game at the moment, and he needs to take this summer to assess whether he can adapt his game to be more of a team player and up his general contribution in that 90 minutes. What is clear is that is very much surplus to requirements at our club as far as a first team player is concerned.

 

 

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Bannofan said:

Anyway, what would you say is the very obvious reason Rhodes has struggled so far is? Fletcher has been injured, so who knows what kind of impact he would have had in the second half of the season.

 

For Rhodes, he came in under Carlos and we were playing the defensive game, not even trying to attack in the first half, and expecting our forward to just magic goals out of their buts.

In that first season where he came in half way thru:

He had 4 games paired with nando, and i think we've all recognised at this point that a front 2 with nando in it generally doesnt work, regardless of who he's paired with.
He had twice that many games with Winnall. Winnall is short compared to Rhodes, and offers nothing in the way of link-up or hold up play. So the onus fell on Rhodes to do that job. That's not what he's good at and generally ended up with Rhodes a long way from goal, trying to flick it on of put other people thru. This is what people were talking about when they said "not playing to his strengths". We had 2 natural partners for him in Nuhiu and Fletcher. He had no games with Nuhiu and 1 with Fletch (which we won 2-0).
He was then dropped to the bench, mostly getting 20-30 minutes thru to the end of the season.

 

Shifting on to this season.. it was the end of October before he got any significant time on the pitch, almost entirely restricted to being a last 15 min sub (which is, again, not his game). Some players are bad off the bench, Rhodes is one of them. Looking at matches he played more than 60 minutes in under Carlos, he scored 4 goals in those 8 games. Which is great. a goal every 2 games is what we thought we were getting.. and when he actually played that's what we got.

The problem is.. that this was against the backdrop of a lot of lacklustre cameos and the generally underperformance of our team, ultimately resulting in Carlos going. So with all these negatives, no one saw (or wanted to see?) that when we actually used Rhodes then he was delivering. It was easier to just say "everything's awful, including Rhodes". Maybe worth noting that all 4 of those goals came while partnering Hooper up front, who, while not a natural fit for Rhodes, he hadn't played up front with the previous season.

 

Enter Jos. We shifted to an incredibly defensive formation in an attempt to stop the rot, having lot 5 of the previous 6 games. That sacrificed our attack to a large extent, scoring just 2 goals in Jos' first 5 games. Rhodes featured in just 2 of those, partnered with Joao. In the 6th game (Derby at home) Joao and Rhodes played again and Joao scored 2. That was the beginning of Joao finding some form. Jos put Nuhiu in as his hold up game was a better suit for Joao (just like it would have been a better fit for Rhodes), and tho two took the opportunity and played well, scoring goals thru to the end of the season. Rhodes had a couple of other games, including scoring the only goal in the win over Hull.

 

So what do we take from all of this?

1) Rhodes isn't a target man. He's not built for holding it up and playing in other players. He's the guy you want changes laid on for.. But we knew that already. It's ridiculous that Carlos never gave him someone to play along side.

2) Rhodes is rubbish off the bench. For whatever reason, some players are poor off the bench. It can be hard to get up to speed in a game which is already underway, that's for sure. But also because his game is based so much on movement, he needs a little bit longer to figure out his opponent and how to get them to do what he wants so he can make space for himself. It's be interesting to see how many early goals he's scored in his career.

3) When he plays full matches his goals return is around that 20 a season mark. So the idea that football has moved on seems ridiculous. He can score when given time on the pitch.. even if he doesn't have an ideal partner along side him. When we're playing a front 2, I'd love to see Rhodes/Nuhiu or Rhodes/Fletch.

4) He didn't have much opportunity under Jos, due to the personnel available (Joao's pace is more important when you have no other attacking outlets) and because Joao and Nuhiu's form made them basically undroppable, as it should.

 

So, overall, if we give him a partner.. and play him from the start.. he will get us goals. And not always at the expense of the player he's along side, either. He's never played with Nuhiu, but the one game he had with Fletch, Fletch scored twice.

 

If we're playing 352, then him along side Nuhiu or Fletch seems the best option to me. Probably with Nando at the top of the midfield 3.
In a front 3, I'm not sure Rhodes works. You generally want the central player to be a big of a physcial bully, so against Fletch or Nuhiu can do that. The wide players you tend to want trickery and pace to make runs beyond. That's Nando all over, and Joao's shown he can do that when his mind is actually on the game. Personally I'd bring in someone like Youness Mokhtar to play there, as that's exactly what he's built for.

 

That leaves, Winnall, Joao and Hooper trying to find a place in the side, and both of the later two coming into the final year of their contracts. With FFP in mind, it might not be the worst idea to look at moving them on, and picking up what should still be decent fees all. We'd certainly get in excess of 10m for the three, maybe nearer 15.

 

We could ofc cut out losses with Rhodes, ship him out for 3-4mil, then find ourselves at the end of the coming season with Joao and Hooper leaving on fees (because why wouldn't you given the payday it is), Winnall gone and just Nando, Nuhiu and Fletch on the books. Suddenly we'd need to find a goal scorer.

 

Thanks my take anyway.

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15 minutes ago, fred mciver said:

From Reach's crosses, the goals will come for both these strikers.

 

It does feel like under Jos we're in danger of actually having supply to the forwards. It's going to be a really interesting battle for the striker shirts next season even if we ship out 2-3 of them. The quality that is there is just great, so if the rest of the team is set up to unlock their ability then it should be really good to watch.

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3 minutes ago, cookeh said:

 

It does feel like under Jos we're in danger of actually having supply to the forwards. It's going to be a really interesting battle for the striker shirts next season even if we ship out 2-3 of them. The quality that is there is just great, so if the rest of the team is set up to unlock their ability then it should be really good to watch.

Spot on mate, except we lack quality and power at back defending high crosses.

 

We must find a young Huth.

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On 23/05/2018 at 14:30, cookeh said:

 

For Rhodes, he came in under Carlos and we were playing the defensive game, not even trying to attack in the first half, and expecting our forward to just magic goals out of their buts.

In that first season where he came in half way thru:

He had 4 games paired with nando, and i think we've all recognised at this point that a front 2 with nando in it generally doesnt work, regardless of who he's paired with.
He had twice that many games with Winnall. Winnall is short compared to Rhodes, and offers nothing in the way of link-up or hold up play. So the onus fell on Rhodes to do that job. That's not what he's good at and generally ended up with Rhodes a long way from goal, trying to flick it on of put other people thru. This is what people were talking about when they said "not playing to his strengths". We had 2 natural partners for him in Nuhiu and Fletcher. He had no games with Nuhiu and 1 with Fletch (which we won 2-0).
He was then dropped to the bench, mostly getting 20-30 minutes thru to the end of the season.

 

Shifting on to this season.. it was the end of October before he got any significant time on the pitch, almost entirely restricted to being a last 15 min sub (which is, again, not his game). Some players are bad off the bench, Rhodes is one of them. Looking at matches he played more than 60 minutes in under Carlos, he scored 4 goals in those 8 games. Which is great. a goal every 2 games is what we thought we were getting.. and when he actually played that's what we got.

The problem is.. that this was against the backdrop of a lot of lacklustre cameos and the generally underperformance of our team, ultimately resulting in Carlos going. So with all these negatives, no one saw (or wanted to see?) that when we actually used Rhodes then he was delivering. It was easier to just say "everything's awful, including Rhodes". Maybe worth noting that all 4 of those goals came while partnering Hooper up front, who, while not a natural fit for Rhodes, he hadn't played up front with the previous season.

 

Enter Jos. We shifted to an incredibly defensive formation in an attempt to stop the rot, having lot 5 of the previous 6 games. That sacrificed our attack to a large extent, scoring just 2 goals in Jos' first 5 games. Rhodes featured in just 2 of those, partnered with Joao. In the 6th game (Derby at home) Joao and Rhodes played again and Joao scored 2. That was the beginning of Joao finding some form. Jos put Nuhiu in as his hold up game was a better suit for Joao (just like it would have been a better fit for Rhodes), and tho two took the opportunity and played well, scoring goals thru to the end of the season. Rhodes had a couple of other games, including scoring the only goal in the win over Hull.

 

So what do we take from all of this?

1) Rhodes isn't a target man. He's not built for holding it up and playing in other players. He's the guy you want changes laid on for.. But we knew that already. It's ridiculous that Carlos never gave him someone to play along side.

2) Rhodes is rubbish off the bench. For whatever reason, some players are poor off the bench. It can be hard to get up to speed in a game which is already underway, that's for sure. But also because his game is based so much on movement, he needs a little bit longer to figure out his opponent and how to get them to do what he wants so he can make space for himself. It's be interesting to see how many early goals he's scored in his career.

3) When he plays full matches his goals return is around that 20 a season mark. So the idea that football has moved on seems ridiculous. He can score when given time on the pitch.. even if he doesn't have an ideal partner along side him. When we're playing a front 2, I'd love to see Rhodes/Nuhiu or Rhodes/Fletch.

4) He didn't have much opportunity under Jos, due to the personnel available (Joao's pace is more important when you have no other attacking outlets) and because Joao and Nuhiu's form made them basically undroppable, as it should.

 

So, overall, if we give him a partner.. and play him from the start.. he will get us goals. And not always at the expense of the player he's along side, either. He's never played with Nuhiu, but the one game he had with Fletch, Fletch scored twice.

 

If we're playing 352, then him along side Nuhiu or Fletch seems the best option to me. Probably with Nando at the top of the midfield 3.
In a front 3, I'm not sure Rhodes works. You generally want the central player to be a big of a physcial bully, so against Fletch or Nuhiu can do that. The wide players you tend to want trickery and pace to make runs beyond. That's Nando all over, and Joao's shown he can do that when his mind is actually on the game. Personally I'd bring in someone like Youness Mokhtar to play there, as that's exactly what he's built for.

 

That leaves, Winnall, Joao and Hooper trying to find a place in the side, and both of the later two coming into the final year of their contracts. With FFP in mind, it might not be the worst idea to look at moving them on, and picking up what should still be decent fees all. We'd certainly get in excess of 10m for the three, maybe nearer 15.

 

We could ofc cut out losses with Rhodes, ship him out for 3-4mil, then find ourselves at the end of the coming season with Joao and Hooper leaving on fees (because why wouldn't you given the payday it is), Winnall gone and just Nando, Nuhiu and Fletch on the books. Suddenly we'd need to find a goal scorer.

 

Thanks my take anyway.

 

Thank you for such a detailed and considered response, definitely one of the most comprehensive opinions I have read regarding the 'Rhodes' problem. 

 

Obviously the best option would be to sell him if we were fortunate enough to recieve a bid.

 

If he is to remain,  however it looks from your stats that he needs to play with Fletcher or Nuhiu, and have a run of games.

 

The catch 22 is that he hasn't done enough here to earn that accommodation. 

 

We simply aren't desperate enough to play Rhodes wether hes scoring or not. We do have other options. 

 

Personaly I've also not seen enough evidence to suggest more goals for Rhodes equals more goals for the team, and they havent equalled huge success either. 

 

Top and bottom of it? We just don't need him , and we never did. 

 

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 I don't see how Rhodes can get into the team without another injury crisis,if as was said he is crap off the bench then that's a shame for him coz I think he's going to be sat on it for a large percentage of this coming season .  

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Two things stand in Rhodes favour:

 

1- He can’t get any worse 

2- He wasn’t one of our crocks

 

Hooper and Fletcher on the other hand...

 

As good as Hooper is, any fan hoping for 35+ games from him next season is .. hopeful to say the least.

 

If any strikers are to be moved on, it’s these two.

 

At first I read @cookeh post as a long winded list of excuses why Jordan was cr4p. After rereading I take it back and must say they make sense.

 

It’s going to be difficult. Yet I would like us going into next season with the same front Three we finished with. I just don’t think we can rely on Hooper or Fletcher to contribute enough throughout the season, and in getting older they’re break downs will get worse and even more frequent.

 

Rhodes will wait his chance, but he must take it.

Edited by pussface
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We cannot afford to waste any more time on Rhodes, he doesn’t fit Changing systems and personnel just to try and accommodate him, has to be a thing of the past

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57 minutes ago, pussface said:

Two things stand in Rhodes favour:

 

1- He can’t get any worse 

2- He wasn’t one of our crocks

 

Hooper and Fletcher on the other hand...

 

As good as Hooper is, any fan hoping for 35+ games from him next season is .. hopeful to say the least.

 

If any strikers are to be moved on, it’s these two.

 

At first I read @cookeh post as a long winded list of excuses why Jordan was cr4p. After rereading I take it back and must say they make sense.

 

It’s going to be difficult. Yet I would like us going into next season with the same front Three we finished with. I just don’t think we can rely on Hooper or Fletcher to contribute enough throughout the season, and in getting older they’re break downs will get worse and even more frequent.

 

Rhodes will wait his chance, but he must take it.

 

Hooper started 24 consecutive matches from 8th August to Christmas. He played 90 for almost all of those. 

 

For those as ancient as me you might recall a comic book character called Wear ‘em out Wilf. Everything he touched broke or wore out. In the Portuguese version he was called Wear ‘em out Carlos. Carlos broke our players, including Hooper. 

 

Do you think that Joao and Nuhiu, under Carlos, would have had such a golden period, or do you think they would have been flogged to death? Jos left one or both out, incurring our frustration, presumably knowing that they needed a break. Under Carlos they would have played every game and doubtless fallen apart missing the last several games.

 

I think our best forward is Hooper. However, he should not start on 11th August. Joao-Nuhiu-Forestieri haves earned that right and should line up together without question. But, even in they pick up where they left off, you can bet your mortgage on Jos giving them time off for good behaviour. 

 

I expect to see a far better managed squad next season. The last five months have shown us that players will be picked on merit, played in their best positions, and treated with care and thought, not reckless, naive, short-term, criminal, irresponsible foolishness.

Edited by Holmowl
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It will be interesting to see how we use Hooper He is a very clever footballer, who certainly has the speed of thought to link things in attack

However, towards the end of the season, Nuhiu was used as a target man Not a static one like Fletcher, but a more mobile version He was quickly supported by Joao and Forestieri, starting from wider slightly withdrawn posisitions All three were constantly on the move, quickly interchanging, and a real handful for the opposition back line

As I said, Hooper’s movement is good, but is it at the right speed to play the way we finished the season

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it's all well and good saying jos will play nuhiu & joao but he aint seen fletch & hooper play yet …….if he can nuhiu and joao playing as well as they did theres no reason to think he cant do the same with the returning players .

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1 hour ago, gurujuan said:

It will be interesting to see how we use Hooper He is a very clever footballer, who certainly has the speed of thought to link things in attack

However, towards the end of the season, Nuhiu was used as a target man Not a static one like Fletcher, but a more mobile version He was quickly supported by Joao and Forestieri, starting from wider slightly withdrawn posisitions All three were constantly on the move, quickly interchanging, and a real handful for the opposition back line

As I said, Hooper’s movement is good, but is it at the right speed to play the way we finished the season

 

You think Hooper would slow down our play? Doesn’t sound like the Hooper I watch. Quite the opposite. He is very often the fulcrum of our most sweeping attacks.

 

I also don’t see Fletcher as static. If he stays I think Fletch and Nuhiu can inter-change well throughout the season. Neither our 15 stone but twinkle-toed juggernaught nor our battle-scarred trier will be able to lead the line week in week out for 90 minutes, however well they play.

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9 minutes ago, Holmowl said:

 

You think Hooper would slow down our play? Doesn’t sound like the Hooper I watch. Quite the opposite. He is very often the fulcrum of our most sweeping attacks.

 

I also don’t see Fletcher as static. If he stays I think Fletch and Nuhiu can inter-change well throughout the season. Neither our 15 stone but twinkle-toed juggernaught nor our battle-scarred trier will be able to lead the line week in week out for 90 minutes, however well they play.

No I don’t think that, I’m just working out how he will fit into that system He won’t be playing the Nuhiu role, and does he have the legs for the wide roles of Joao and Forestieri? I don’t know, but the success of that trio was the energy they brought to the front line

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7 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

No I don’t think that, I’m just working out how he will fit into that system He won’t be playing the Nuhiu role, and does he have the legs for the wide roles of Joao and Forestieri? I don’t know, but the success of that trio was the energy they brought to the front line

 

There were numerous games where Hooper, Nuhiu and Forestieri, or Hooper, Fletcher and Rhodes transformed insipid performances. I think and hope Jos will find different approaches which make the most of our several excellent forwards.

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On 23/05/2018 at 14:30, cookeh said:

 

For Rhodes, he came in under Carlos and we were playing the defensive game, not even trying to attack in the first half, and expecting our forward to just magic goals out of their buts.

In that first season where he came in half way thru:

He had 4 games paired with nando, and i think we've all recognised at this point that a front 2 with nando in it generally doesnt work, regardless of who he's paired with.
He had twice that many games with Winnall. Winnall is short compared to Rhodes, and offers nothing in the way of link-up or hold up play. So the onus fell on Rhodes to do that job. That's not what he's good at and generally ended up with Rhodes a long way from goal, trying to flick it on of put other people thru. This is what people were talking about when they said "not playing to his strengths". We had 2 natural partners for him in Nuhiu and Fletcher. He had no games with Nuhiu and 1 with Fletch (which we won 2-0).
He was then dropped to the bench, mostly getting 20-30 minutes thru to the end of the season.

 

Shifting on to this season.. it was the end of October before he got any significant time on the pitch, almost entirely restricted to being a last 15 min sub (which is, again, not his game). Some players are bad off the bench, Rhodes is one of them. Looking at matches he played more than 60 minutes in under Carlos, he scored 4 goals in those 8 games. Which is great. a goal every 2 games is what we thought we were getting.. and when he actually played that's what we got.

The problem is.. that this was against the backdrop of a lot of lacklustre cameos and the generally underperformance of our team, ultimately resulting in Carlos going. So with all these negatives, no one saw (or wanted to see?) that when we actually used Rhodes then he was delivering. It was easier to just say "everything's awful, including Rhodes". Maybe worth noting that all 4 of those goals came while partnering Hooper up front, who, while not a natural fit for Rhodes, he hadn't played up front with the previous season.

 

Enter Jos. We shifted to an incredibly defensive formation in an attempt to stop the rot, having lot 5 of the previous 6 games. That sacrificed our attack to a large extent, scoring just 2 goals in Jos' first 5 games. Rhodes featured in just 2 of those, partnered with Joao. In the 6th game (Derby at home) Joao and Rhodes played again and Joao scored 2. That was the beginning of Joao finding some form. Jos put Nuhiu in as his hold up game was a better suit for Joao (just like it would have been a better fit for Rhodes), and tho two took the opportunity and played well, scoring goals thru to the end of the season. Rhodes had a couple of other games, including scoring the only goal in the win over Hull.

 

So what do we take from all of this?

1) Rhodes isn't a target man. He's not built for holding it up and playing in other players. He's the guy you want changes laid on for.. But we knew that already. It's ridiculous that Carlos never gave him someone to play along side.

2) Rhodes is rubbish off the bench. For whatever reason, some players are poor off the bench. It can be hard to get up to speed in a game which is already underway, that's for sure. But also because his game is based so much on movement, he needs a little bit longer to figure out his opponent and how to get them to do what he wants so he can make space for himself. It's be interesting to see how many early goals he's scored in his career.

3) When he plays full matches his goals return is around that 20 a season mark. So the idea that football has moved on seems ridiculous. He can score when given time on the pitch.. even if he doesn't have an ideal partner along side him. When we're playing a front 2, I'd love to see Rhodes/Nuhiu or Rhodes/Fletch.

4) He didn't have much opportunity under Jos, due to the personnel available (Joao's pace is more important when you have no other attacking outlets) and because Joao and Nuhiu's form made them basically undroppable, as it should.

 

So, overall, if we give him a partner.. and play him from the start.. he will get us goals. And not always at the expense of the player he's along side, either. He's never played with Nuhiu, but the one game he had with Fletch, Fletch scored twice.

 

If we're playing 352, then him along side Nuhiu or Fletch seems the best option to me. Probably with Nando at the top of the midfield 3.
In a front 3, I'm not sure Rhodes works. You generally want the central player to be a big of a physcial bully, so against Fletch or Nuhiu can do that. The wide players you tend to want trickery and pace to make runs beyond. That's Nando all over, and Joao's shown he can do that when his mind is actually on the game. Personally I'd bring in someone like Youness Mokhtar to play there, as that's exactly what he's built for.

 

That leaves, Winnall, Joao and Hooper trying to find a place in the side, and both of the later two coming into the final year of their contracts. With FFP in mind, it might not be the worst idea to look at moving them on, and picking up what should still be decent fees all. We'd certainly get in excess of 10m for the three, maybe nearer 15.

 

We could ofc cut out losses with Rhodes, ship him out for 3-4mil, then find ourselves at the end of the coming season with Joao and Hooper leaving on fees (because why wouldn't you given the payday it is), Winnall gone and just Nando, Nuhiu and Fletch on the books. Suddenly we'd need to find a goal scorer.

 

Thanks my take anyway.

 

Or to put it another way Rhodes is extremely inflexible, unable to adapt his game and is only able to thrive under very specific circumstances. Perhaps he would do better if we completely changed the way we play to accommodate him. But really what would be the point? We have plenty of other strikers who also offer goals, are more flexible in terms of the formation they can play in and who also offer a range of other attributes that he doesn't posses. The bottom line is whether he is scoring or not we don't need him, his all round game isn't good enough and we have several better options in the squad.

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3 minutes ago, NorthernOwl said:

 

Or to put it another way Rhodes is extremely inflexible, unable to adapt his game and is only able to thrive under very specific circumstances. Perhaps he would do better if we completely changed the way we play to accommodate him. But really what would be the point? We have plenty of other strikers who also offer goals, are more flexible in terms of the formation they can play in and who also offer a range of other attributes that he doesn't posses. The bottom line is whether he is scoring or not we don't need him, his all round game isn't good enough and we have several better options in the squad.

Pretty much sums it up for me 

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On 21/05/2018 at 21:03, Beholder said:

I have another year of contract, let’s see if I stay,” Lucas João told A Bola

 

I know that interviewer's brother, Eddie. Right nasty b*stard, he is.

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2 hours ago, NorthernOwl said:

 

Or to put it another way Rhodes is extremely inflexible, unable to adapt his game and is only able to thrive under very specific circumstances. Perhaps he would do better if we completely changed the way we play to accommodate him. But really what would be the point? We have plenty of other strikers who also offer goals, are more flexible in terms of the formation they can play in and who also offer a range of other attributes that he doesn't posses. The bottom line is whether he is scoring or not we don't need him, his all round game isn't good enough and we have several better options in the squad.

 

It's not really changing the way we play. we played a front 2 a lot last season. we played nuhiu a lot last season. we probably would have played fletch a lot if not for injuries. so just putting rhodes on the park on a regular basis isnt really "changing the way we play".

 

Even if he's not that great in a front 3, and he ends up just being really good in a front 2, then.. well.. that's fine. How long have we been saying we need a play b? so if we know the opponent is strong at fullback and tends to pack the middle of the park, then we're going to want to start with a front 2 and 3 in the mid. I'm absolutely fine with players not playing every single game because we have players who better fit the needed system than they do.

 

We want different options and having players who excel at specific things is fine. Semedo wasn't around for so long because of his distribution.. he came on, he did a fairly limited job of just trying to block and break things up and that was it. If we're going to regularly switch between a front 2 and a front 3, as seems likely, then having a guy who excels in a front 2 seems like a great idea to me. Kind of like a wide right forward player with some skill and pace would be a really good signing. If we play a front 2, he won't get a game. but when we play 3 he'll be vital.

 

We all like hooper, but his age, injury record and contract all spell exit door for him this summer. I feel like we're going to need Rhodes next season.. or we're going to need to replace him at least, should he go.

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