Sean Clare future in doubt

[ChinaOwl]

8 minutes ago, DJMortimer said:

I've no idea how good or bad young Hirst might be. But how would we have accommodated him in a group of strikers (Forestieri, Hooper, Fletcher, Rhodes, Winnall, Joao, Nuhiu) that was already overcrowded without him? Can you imagine how the senior pros would have reacted to being bypassed for an unproven kid?

 

 

 

I too have no idea how good or indeed bad Hirst will turn out but I would imagine the exact points you have raised must have been an issue at Liverpool when they gave Owen and Fowler their breaks into the first team.

[SiJ]

Ah so we are now going to make examples of youth team players who got a chance in the 90s. 

[scram]

So Beckham, Fowler and Owen...

 

What about Messi at Barca?

 

Obviously all those examples are really relevant...

[Reallondonowl]

1 minute ago, DJMortimer said:

 

Seriously?

 

 

Yes, seriously. 

You could replace Beckham with Owen if you prefer.

you seriously state that it would have been hard to accommodate him ahead of Fletcher. So, your strategy for a football team is to hire yesterday's mercenaries on big wages rather than ip and coming home grown talent ?!?!

i have see more crap about George,s wage demands on here than a madhatter’s tea party. 

If you are sad bitter or twisted -  fine as everyone is welcome on OT bit do not try to play the frcking high and mighty on a topic you know SFA about

[ChinaOwl]

3 minutes ago, SiJ said:

Ah so we are now going to make examples of youth team players who got a chance in the 90s. 

 

I think there is far more chance of Hirst being a let down than a success when he is eventually given the nod to play first team football but the feelings of other squad players shouldn't cloud the managers' feelings if he thinks the time is right.

[Reallondonowl]

Just now, scram said:

So Beckham, Fowler and Owen...

 

What about Messi at Barca?

 

Obviously all those examples are really relevant...

Scram, only time will tell pal 

[DJMortimer]

10 minutes ago, ChinaOwl said:

 

I too have no idea how good or indeed bad Hirst will turn out but I would imagine the exact points you have raised must have been an issue at Liverpool when they gave Owen and Fowler their breaks into the first team.

 

According to Soccerbase, when Michael Owen broke through into Liverpool's first team, their other strikers were Robbie Fowler, Karlheinz Reidle, Haukur Gudnason and Nicky Rizzo. 

 

This from Wikipedia is also relevant...

 

Fowler's performance in the 1997–98 football season was marred by an anterior cruciate (knee) ligament injury that kept him out of action for half the season and caused him to miss the 1998 World Cup. During this period of injury, fellow Liverpool striker, Michael Owen rose to prominence, making his debut in 1997. Owen established himself in the Liverpool team in Fowler's absence, and played alongside him when Fowler regained his fitness.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2018 by DJMortimer

[Reallondonowl]

Does make me laugh all you lot with crystal balls - dont they jangle when you run ??

[DJMortimer]

2 minutes ago, Reallondonowl said:

If you are sad bitter or twisted -  fine as everyone is welcome on OT bit do not try to play the frcking high and mighty on a topic you know SFA about

 

What the f#ck is this? I don't share your opinion. Keep your bloody knickers on you infant.

 

I have made NO claims about Hirst's salary expectations, illicit negotiations, representatives, attitude etc. In fact, I even specified I had no idea how good or bad a player he was.

 

Get some help with anger management for everyone's sake.

[SiJ]

The real question is how many of those calling for Hirst Jnr to be picked above Nando, Hooper, Fletcher etc have ever actually seen him play...

[DJMortimer]

3 minutes ago, Reallondonowl said:

Does make me laugh all you lot with crystal balls - dont they jangle when you run ??

 

You are being much more strident about what he might do than we are about the realities of the competition he faces even at a modestly situated club like ours. We've even had comparisons with some of England's best young players of the last 30 years.

[Reallondonowl]

1 minute ago, DJMortimer said:

 

You are being much more strident about what he might do than we are about the realities of the competition he faces even at a modestly situated club like ours. We've even had comparisons with some of England's best young players of the last 30 years.

And your credentials for “knowing” that he is not are what precisely ?

[scram]

The problem is that this is a genuine impasse - it happens all the time at all levels of football

 

Dom Solanke was in the same situation at Chelsea - although even then much more advanced in his fledgling career than Hirst is

 

Coutinho at Liverpool, Van Dyke at Saints - Pogba at Man U...

 

Sometimes a point cannot be found where the needs/wants of the player can be accommodated by the club - a parting is then inevitable

 

I don't blame either side - just acknowledge that it's very much a part of the modern game

[Reallondonowl]

Wise words as always from you. I am frustrdted that thus sutution has developed as having watched the lad i cannot help but be excited by what is the first real “ prospect “ that we have produced in many a year.

To me producing your own players rather than paying millions to  buy them in without knowing if they truly give a poo is the strategy to be pursued - bit i tried thst and failed so what do i know ?

[Lord Snooty]

4 minutes ago, scram said:

The problem is that this is a genuine impasse - it happens all the time at all levels of football

 

Dom Solanke was in the same situation at Chelsea - although even then much more advanced in his fledgling career than Hirst is

 

Coutinho at Liverpool, Van Dyke at Saints - Pogba at Man U...

 

Sometimes a point cannot be found where the needs/wants of the player can be accommodated by the club - a parting is then inevitable

 

I don't blame either side - just acknowledge that it's very much a part of the modern game

 

It all just gives me a sinking sensation in my belly. 

I know young lads want the best deal they can. It's all understandable. 

But everytime there's one of these tales, whether it's here or elsewhere I find myself descending into a bit of a sombre mood.

I think  of myself at the same saw age as many of these lads and I can't help but think of the thrill of just thinking I might make it. 

Sign the first offer thrown in front! Which is why representation isn't a bad idea!  But it all seems to have swung so far.  

There doesn't appear to be a joy. 

 

I remember Sterland and the famous story about his dad telling him what to ask for and Jack choking and saying 'sign this and get out'. 

It's a funny story. ...but the bit that always resonated me really is the end bit thst very one always forgets where he finished by saying 'to be honest I'd have signed it whatever it said on it just to be neap and pro and play for Sheffield Wednesday'

Ok, he was a Wedneaday fan. But...it just seems to me that there was an enthusiasm. That he'd have been thrilled (though not as much ) to sign for any club. 

 

I don't know. Maybe I'm reading the young ones all wrong. There's bound to be some smashing lads out there who any re just desperate to play.

But more and more I find myself feeling saddened. 

 

 

[scram]

 

Quote

Wise words as always from you. I am frustrdted that thus sutution has developed as having watched the lad i cannot help but be excited by what is the first real “ prospect “ that we have produced in many a year.

To me producing your own players rather than paying millions to  buy them in without knowing if they truly give a poo is the strategy to be pursued - bit i tried thst and failed so what do i know ?

 

 

You've every right to be excited and frustrated

 

I was talking to an ex premier league player today (I know, i'm sorry...) who is now a youth development coach - he has played with and against some of the best players in the world - yet we were talking about talent identification and even he said it's an absolute minefield and the only way anybody can really know if a player is up to it is to give them the chance to prove/disprove that

 

He said (and I agree) that the pathway to giving them chances is so often blocked by the demands of clubs to have success - and the instant requirement for results

 

This forum is a prime example - clamour for the youngsters to play - they play and make a mistake and get absolutely caned - "we need better than them if we're gonna succeed" etc etc

 

I do think we need to make better use of the loan system - let the players play meaningful football - but also let them make their mistakes and learn their lessons at Accy and Gills (for eg) - our first team is no place for that with the stakes so high

Edited April 16, 2018 by scram

[scram]

12 minutes ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

It all just gives me a sinking sensation in my belly. 

I know young lads want the best deal they can. It's all understandable. 

But everytime there's one of these tales, whether it's here or elsewhere I find myself descending into a bit of a sombre mood.

I think  of myself at the same saw age as many of these lads and I can't help but think of the thrill of just thinking I might make it. 

Sign the first offer thrown in front! Which is why representation isn't a bad idea!  But it all seems to have swung so far.  

There doesn't appear to be a joy. 

 

I remember Sterland and the famous story about his dad telling him what to ask for and Jack choking and saying 'sign this and get out'. 

It's a funny story. ...but the bit that always resonated me really is the end bit thst very one always forgets where he finished by saying 'to be honest I'd have signed it whatever it said on it just to be neap and pro and play for Sheffield Wednesday'

Ok, he was a Wedneaday fan. But...it just seems to me that there was an enthusiasm. That he'd have been thrilled (though not as much ) to sign for any club. 

 

I don't know. Maybe I'm reading the young ones all wrong. There's bound to be some smashing lads out there who any re just desperate to play.

But more and more I find myself feeling saddened. 

 

 

 

 

I agree - it's depressing really

 

But the flipside is a kid I know who was getting released at the end of his first year pro contract - he was 19 and had nothing lined up

 

I asked him if he had an agent and he said " what do I need an agent for - a club puts a contract on the table, I sign it then play football for them" - naive maybe, but wholly refreshing

 

He's played professional 1st team football ever since by the way after quickly getting a new club (that was 3 years ago) - and he is being linked with some pretty decent clubs now

Edited April 16, 2018 by scram

[Lord Snooty]

3 minutes ago, scram said:

 

 

I agree - it's depressing really

 

But the flipside is a kid I know who was getting realised at the end of his first pro contract - he was 19 and had nothing lined up

 

I asked him if he had an agent and he said " what do I need an agent for - a club puts a contract on the table, I sign it then play football for them" - naive maybe, but wholly refreshing

 

He's played professional 1st team football ever since by the way after quickly getting a new club (that was 3 years ago) - and he is being linked with some pretty decent clubs now

 

And that is what I'm on about! I love that. 

Just wanting to get out there , get a club and get playing. 

Bit of confidence and a desire to play the game. 

 

On that cheerier note I'll go to bed , bit of faith restored that for some young guns  the passion to play still overrides the desire to own the world's biggest most expensive headphones! 

 

[Socialist_Owl]

A functioning, well funded academy is the only way this club is going to prosper long term.

 

Think Southampton (before new ownership and ridiculous managerial selections).  That's our model.

 

Witness Norwich, knowing the big pay for big name is not a sustainable model for a midsize club, and is ramping up its academy setup fourfold.

 

Huddersfield, with their binning of their academy, will slink back down the ladder soon enough without that internal foundation to sustain them between big names  and bang-on

loanees from their PL campaign.

 

If two big-time Charlies want away, fine by me.  I'm seeing great, measurable progress with our academy in spite of those two, and long may it continue.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Socialist_Owl

[Swiss Toni]

7 hours ago, SiJ said:

The real question is how many of those calling for Hirst Jnr to be picked above Nando, Hooper, Fletcher etc have ever actually seen him play...

 

Where do you get the idea we are asking for him to be picked ‘ahead’ of Nando, Hooper and Fletcher? You’ve gone to the extreme there.

 

What I’m saying is had he been given time off the bench last season when he was on there (and banging goals in for the U23) and England youth) he may have felt more ‘wanted’. Instead he’s looked at his options and that’s fair enough. Would he have done that if Carlos had given him a bit of game time is all I’m saying. 

 

I don’t think anyone in their right mind thinks he deserves a starting spot ahead of Nando or Hooper. But with them being out of the picture for pretty much most of the season had we blooded Hirst last season (and he’d hopefully hit the ground running) then we ‘may’ not have had this trouble with his contract and been so stretched. 

 

Nobody will know either way but I for one am happier to see Jos blooding a few kids here and there than Carlos relying on his favourites which ultimately ended his tenure.