Jordan Rhodes - Disaster

[shandypants]

2 minutes ago, Eightace said:

Imo hes still a good player.

Had a bad time at Boro because he isn't premier league quality.

Then he came here when the team wasnt playing great football like the year before.

He didn't get a good run in a good team and he must know fans have been grumbling

I don't believe he has lost his ability at his age. A finisher is a finisher till the legs can't carry can you any more.

It's more down to confidence imo. And tbh he hasn't played bad apart from missing chances that I'm sure everyone on here could put away.

Maybe he's behind hooper and joao, yes we do need pace, but some seem as eager to write him off as others do to give him more time.

 

I think it’s stretching it saying he has played well. I think Rhodes has been afforded the patience of the previous manager and us as fans - Nuhiu has been given dog’s abuse for contributing more than Rhodes. Rhodes has to start delivering goals consistently very soon; we can’t wait forever for him. 

[bobness]

9 hours ago, IstillhateSteveBould said:

So until we're attacking and on form, he should be nowhere the starting lineup. 

Although I don't think his overall performances justify a starting position there is still a solid argument to giving him a shot. Considering his price tag, it's in the best interests of the club to maintain his value as much as possible, and that's only going to happen if we give him a chance to come good again.

 

If we were gunning for the playoffs, or auto spots, I'd agree that he should be nowhere near the starting line up, but considering we have virtually nothing left to play for this season, doesn't it make sense to start him? From both a business and footballing perspective (the latter because he has delivered the goods in the past and is still relatively young).

Edited January 23, 2018 by bobness

[The Dukeries Owl]

29 minutes ago, bobness said:

Although I don't think his overall performances justify a starting position there is still a solid argument to giving him a shot. Considering his price tag, it's in the best interests of the club to maintain his value as much as possible, and that's only going to happen if we give him a chance to come good again.

 

If we were gunning for the playoffs, or auto spots, I'd agree that he should be nowhere near the starting line up, but considering we have virtually nothing left to play for this season, doesn't it make sense to start him? From both a business and footballing perspective (the latter because he has delivered the goods in the past and is still relatively young).

 

As long as we don't end up getting relegated to maintain JR's market value.

[fred mciver]

Rhodes will be our main man soon, especially when Jos gets in right players for team balance - a top target man , for one.

 

Buying JR under Carlos was just daft, may as well put him in goal. 

[Eightace]

2 hours ago, shandypants said:

I think it’s stretching it saying he has played well. I think Rhodes has been afforded the patience of the previous manager and us as fans - Nuhiu has been given dog’s abuse for contributing more than Rhodes. Rhodes has to start delivering goals consistently very soon; we can’t wait forever for him. 

We can't but I still find it hard to believe he's lost what he had.

I still think he's a good player.

It's not been a good time to be a Wednesday player. Unfortunately he's not a leader , someone who can carry a team.

I don't think his Boro experience should sway any opinions though.

I might be wrong.He could now be crap.

But i think he will be an asset to the squad and it would be daft to sell him unless the money was good.

 

[Day before Thursday]

1 hour ago, Eightace said:

We can't but I still find it hard to believe he's lost what he had.

I still think he's a good player.

It's not been a good time to be a Wednesday player. Unfortunately he's not a leader , someone who can carry a team.

I don't think his Boro experience should sway any opinions though.

I might be wrong.He could now be crap.

But i think he will be an asset to the squad and it would be daft to sell him unless the money was good.

 

After listening to the Wednesday Week Podcast on FFP we can't sell him unless we get our money back otherwise it will impact adversely on our ability to bring in other players. In which case I think we are stuck with him and have to hope he recovers his mojo.

[Eightace]

How much did we pay?

People say 10 million but I thought 6 was nearer to the truth.

We over paid but I don't think we are stuck with him.

He's still decent I believe , even if he isn't in front of joao or hooper.

I think in the past we've brought in good players who haven't performed for us. Then they've moved on and been great players again.

Its just my opinion on Rhodes and not fact but I do believe fans do help stifle players at times. Well they have in the past.

Hooper and Reach have been subjected to it too.

Rhodes played for a premier league team and then a very slow uncreative one, us. So I think it's early in Jos's reign to write him off.

I believe if he stays he will improve.

Just my view though ,as I said.

 

[cookeh]

15 hours ago, CLswfc said:

What do you think Rhodes main strengths are apart from those two you mentioned as it appears we are not playing to them. Could you simplify them. 

 

err..

what do i think his main strengths are other than his main strengths?

I really have no idea what you're asking.. at least.. if i do understand what you're asking it seems like quite a silly question.

 

I can try and explain his strengths more clearly.. but i'll focus on his main one which is his movement.

Rhodes is not particularly strong or particularly quick.. but he does understand where the ball should go in order to make goalscoring opportunities and he knows how to get there ahead of his man.

 

Watch the Cardiff highlights again if you like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrbdCteP8TU

 

The move at 2:39 is an example of how we don't really use Rhodes well.

At the start, Palmer has come inside, so we have no width on the right at all.

Rhodes makes the run out wide, but Palmer ignores him and rolls it back to Reach.

Reach had seen Rhodes run and tries to play it out to him, but the pass is late and too slow, so the defender steps in.

Reach manages to win it back and he and Rhodes exchange passes.

Rhodes makes the right run in behind the defender, which would let him cut it back across goal, which is really dangerous.

Reach instead opts to put in a cross to 2 tightly marked players and it's so bad it doesn't beat the first man.

 

4:43
Joao squares to Wallace who shoots over.

Again look at where Rhodes is. He's lost his marker and Wallace could just roll the ball into him.

Bamba is wrong footed and if Wallace puts Rhodes in he's got time to turn and be 1 on 1.

Instead Wallace takes a touch and blasts it into the stands.
 

6:15

The Jones freekick.

This is actually really good movement. Rhodes sprints forward, and fakes running infront of the defender.

That makes the defender think that's where he should be and so he tries to muscle infront of Rhodes.

Rhodes knows the ball isn't going that far forward, so checks back, the defender has taken himself out of the game due to Rhodes movement, but unfortunately Rhodes doesn't quite off the ground quick enough and can't keep the header down.

The movement is great tho, excellent manipulation of his marker.

 

6:24

The shot that rebounds to Reach.

At 6:26 you can see Rhodes backing off into the middle. He's doing that to draw the Morrison more central.

Rhodes knows the ball down the outside of Morrison is the best one, so he's trying to create that angle for Joao.

He then holds up and dives in behind Morrison to get on the end of the pass from Joao.

It's not an easy finish as it's coming from behind him and he's got to take it quickly as Bamba is coming over, but he forces the keeper into a save and Reach should slot in the rebound (rather than try and break the net)

 

7:55

Putting Joao in 1v1.

To be honest this situation arises pretty much just from luck. However he jumps on the opportunity, cuts inside Bamba to make the angle for the pass and puts Joao thru perfectly. He knows where Joao should go and makes the angle, while also making Bamba turn so Joao has more time. It's good play, and Joao should slide it in the far corner.

 

8:38

The Joao header.

With 2 men on Wallace, Palmer has few options. Rhodes comes across, steps back into Bamba for a second, which is just enough to let the ball come across him and takes Bamba out of the game. Then delivers a good cross to the back post for the easiest chance of the game, which Joao should bury.

 

So just from the highlights reel of Saturday we have 6 examples of Rhodes play which show his movement and the goals he can score and create. From my memory watching it there were more than just these, but it's easier to just show you the ones on tape.

It's also worth bearing in mind that this is in a team playing 532, with only 3 other attack minded players in the team. Our delivery into the box was poor, and you can see from 2:39 and 4:43 that we need to make better decisions in the final third.

Combine that with more quality coming back or being added (Fox and Palmer are not good crossers of the ball, nor is Wallace these days) and hopefully we'll see more benefit from Rhodes movement. Also, with better finishing from Joao we'd have comfortably won the game, with the two chances that Rhodes made for him.

 

Overall, the Cardiff game gave me good hope that Rhodes is still the same player he was and that we can get the best out of him. He's making great runs and working for the team. If he carries on where he left off on Saturday then I've no doubt he'll make a real difference for us.

[gurujuan]

1 hour ago, Day before Thursday said:

After listening to the Wednesday Week Podcast on FFP we can't sell him unless we get our money back otherwise it will impact adversely on our ability to bring in other players. In which case I think we are stuck with him and have to hope he recovers his mojo.

So there’s no escape from this nightmare If this is true, then the deal is quite clearly Wednesday’s biggest transfer disaster

[Eightace]

I'm usually with you Guru but I think you're wrong on this one.

He's definitely not as bad as people are making out.

But this is the Owlstalk that said Antonio was garbage and an athlete not a footballer , so I always use my own judgement.

Hooper needed to go back tonight , was another comment that I laughed at.

End of the day players aren't daft, they know what fans opinions are and I think he is suffering from lack of confidence and nothing physical.

I hope Jos can get him back to his best. What's the alternative, tut at him and make him even worse?

He ain't a bad player even if he isn't the same player he was at 20.

We have been crap this year. Most of the players have been, not just Rhodes.

[Guest ka58]

1 hour ago, cookeh said:

 

err..

what do i think his main strengths are other than his main strengths?

I really have no idea what you're asking.. at least.. if i do understand what you're asking it seems like quite a silly question.

 

I can try and explain his strengths more clearly.. but i'll focus on his main one which is his movement.

Rhodes is not particularly strong or particularly quick.. but he does understand where the ball should go in order to make goalscoring opportunities and he knows how to get there ahead of his man.

 

Watch the Cardiff highlights again if you like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrbdCteP8TU

 

The move at 2:39 is an example of how we don't really use Rhodes well.

At the start, Palmer has come inside, so we have no width on the right at all.

Rhodes makes the run out wide, but Palmer ignores him and rolls it back to Reach.

Reach had seen Rhodes run and tries to play it out to him, but the pass is late and too slow, so the defender steps in.

Reach manages to win it back and he and Rhodes exchange passes.

Rhodes makes the right run in behind the defender, which would let him cut it back across goal, which is really dangerous.

Reach instead opts to put in a cross to 2 tightly marked players and it's so bad it doesn't beat the first man.

 

4:43
Joao squares to Wallace who shoots over.

Again look at where Rhodes is. He's lost his marker and Wallace could just roll the ball into him.

Bamba is wrong footed and if Wallace puts Rhodes in he's got time to turn and be 1 on 1.

Instead Wallace takes a touch and blasts it into the stands.
 

6:15

The Jones freekick.

This is actually really good movement. Rhodes sprints forward, and fakes running infront of the defender.

That makes the defender think that's where he should be and so he tries to muscle infront of Rhodes.

Rhodes knows the ball isn't going that far forward, so checks back, the defender has taken himself out of the game due to Rhodes movement, but unfortunately Rhodes doesn't quite off the ground quick enough and can't keep the header down.

The movement is great tho, excellent manipulation of his marker.

 

6:24

The shot that rebounds to Reach.

At 6:26 you can see Rhodes backing off into the middle. He's doing that to draw the Morrison more central.

Rhodes knows the ball down the outside of Morrison is the best one, so he's trying to create that angle for Joao.

He then holds up and dives in behind Morrison to get on the end of the pass from Joao.

It's not an easy finish as it's coming from behind him and he's got to take it quickly as Bamba is coming over, but he forces the keeper into a save and Reach should slot in the rebound (rather than try and break the net)

 

7:55

Putting Joao in 1v1.

To be honest this situation arises pretty much just from luck. However he jumps on the opportunity, cuts inside Bamba to make the angle for the pass and puts Joao thru perfectly. He knows where Joao should go and makes the angle, while also making Bamba turn so Joao has more time. It's good play, and Joao should slide it in the far corner.

 

8:38

The Joao header.

With 2 men on Wallace, Palmer has few options. Rhodes comes across, steps back into Bamba for a second, which is just enough to let the ball come across him and takes Bamba out of the game. Then delivers a good cross to the back post for the easiest chance of the game, which Joao should bury.

 

So just from the highlights reel of Saturday we have 6 examples of Rhodes play which show his movement and the goals he can score and create. From my memory watching it there were more than just these, but it's easier to just show you the ones on tape.

It's also worth bearing in mind that this is in a team playing 532, with only 3 other attack minded players in the team. Our delivery into the box was poor, and you can see from 2:39 and 4:43 that we need to make better decisions in the final third.

Combine that with more quality coming back or being added (Fox and Palmer are not good crossers of the ball, nor is Wallace these days) and hopefully we'll see more benefit from Rhodes movement. Also, with better finishing from Joao we'd have comfortably won the game, with the two chances that Rhodes made for him.

 

Overall, the Cardiff game gave me good hope that Rhodes is still the same player he was and that we can get the best out of him. He's making great runs and working for the team. If he carries on where he left off on Saturday then I've no doubt he'll make a real difference for us.

 

I admire the positive spin but that's all it is really - spin. The 6 examples you give are 2 opportunties where he arguably could have received a pass  - certainly in the wallace one there is nothing in it. He just shows for the ball.

 

There is then a good pass and cross to Joao.

 

There is then a missed free header and a missed one on one.  Whichever way you dress it up - if he gets one of these two right we possibly win the game. That's what he should be getting right.

[gurujuan]

11 minutes ago, Eightace said:

I'm usually with you Guru but I think you're wrong on this one.

He's definitely not as bad as people are making out.

But this is the Owlstalk that said Antonio was garbage and an athlete not a footballer , so I always use my own judgement.

Hooper needed to go back tonight , was another comment that I laughed at.

End of the day players aren't daft, they know what fans opinions are and I think he is suffering from lack of confidence and nothing physical.

I hope Jos can get him back to his best. What's the alternative, tut at him and make him even worse?

He ain't a bad player even if he isn't the same player he was at 20.

We have been crap this year. Most of the players have been, not just Rhodes.

It’s not that I think he’s a bad player, or even just a bad fit for us He is a bad fit yes, but I feel he would be for most clubs at this level It’s all about the way the game has gone, the recent tactical developments that have left players like Jordan Rhodes on the periphery

Edited January 23, 2018 by gurujuan

[Eightace]

It's all opinions. I'm usually in agreement with most of what I've seen you post.

I still believe he has a part to play.

He should have buried that shot but I don't think that header was easy.

Seen those missed by the best.

[cookeh]

2 minutes ago, ka58 said:

 

I admire the positive spin but that's all it is really - spin. The 6 examples you give are 2 opportunties where he arguably could have received a pass  - certainly in the wallace one there is nothing in it. He just shows for the ball.

 

There is then a good pass and cross to Joao.

 

There is then a missed free header and a missed one on one.  Whichever way you dress it up - if he gets one of these two right we possibly win the game. That's what he should be getting right.

 

Sometimes keepers save shots. It happens. I don't think you berate a striker for hitting the target, especially when the save makes an easier chance for someone else.

 

Here's a question.. what are your strikers supposed to do off the ball? Show for it, right? Get in a position where if they receive it they have a scoring opportunity. And that's what Rhodes was doing. That other players turned down the pass and did something rubbish instead isn't on Rhodes. He was there waiting for a ball so he could have a shot. That's what people mean when we say we don't play to his strengths. Generally we lump in aimless crosses (just as Reach's at 2:39) and it doesn't matter who's up front, they're wayward or so easy to defend that we might as well have not bothered. Rhodes make angles for thru balls.. he hangs just behind the centerbacks when the balls wide, waiting for a ball in behind the defense so he can get infront and get something on it. We don't play thru balls.. we don't fire in crosses behind the defense.. Rhodes has very little to work with and it seems like our midfield don't really know how to work with a striker like him. Like I said, hopefully once Bannan, Nando and Hooper come back we'll see a real difference. In the meantime it's up to Jos to get the team putting in dangerous balls, otherwise I think we'll see Rhodes doing work outside the box more, as he did on Saturday.

[cookeh]

11 minutes ago, ka58 said:

 

I admire the positive spin but that's all it is really - spin.

 

About it being 'spin'.. there's folk on this thread saying "he doesn't work", "his head is down", "it was like playing with 10 men".
I've tried to document provable examples, just from the few minutes of highlights on youtube, and i didn't even mention stuff like the lay off to Reach early doors, which got Grujic booked.

So i'd suggest i'm a lot nearer the truth of the matter than the guys saying he might as well have not been there.

[Guest ka58]

4 hours ago, cookeh said:

 

About it being 'spin'.. there's folk on this thread saying "he doesn't work", "his head is down", "it was like playing with 10 men".
I've tried to document provable examples, just from the few minutes of highlights on youtube, and i didn't even mention stuff like the lay off to Reach early doors, which got Grujic booked.

So i'd suggest i'm a lot nearer the truth of the matter than the guys saying he might as well have not been there.

 

If your trying to prove that rhodes did more than he would had he not been there then you’ve achieved that.

 

if you’re trying to show rhodes did well on the basis of asking for the ball from Wallace with his back to goal, missing a free header and a one on one and a good pass and cross for Joao - I’m not so sure.

 

also - he’s played 40 odd games for us with any number of different team mates / formations and has never really looked dangerous. 

Edited January 23, 2018 by ka58

[cookeh]

1 minute ago, ka58 said:

 

If your trying to prove that rhodes did more than he would had he not been there then you’ve achieved that.

 

if you’re trying to show rhodes did well on the basis of asking for the ball from Wallace with his back to goal, missing a free header and a one on one and a good pass and cross for Joao - I’m not so sure.

 

Well.. feel free to summarise what Reach, Joao and Wallace did in the game..  I 100% support your desire to not let my commentary on Rhodes exist in a vacuum, so show me that he was the 4th most effective attacker we had that day, and not the first.

[asteener1867]

Just now, cookeh said:

 

Well.. feel free to summarise what Reach, Joao and Wallace did in the game..  I 100% support your desire to not let my commentary on Rhodes exist in a vacuum, so show me that he was the 4th most effective attacker we had that day, and not the first.

Its pointless picking "Instances" in a game of football...I once saw Jeffers curl a beauty in against Hull...What a player?....Ive seen Ola Tidman pull of a world class save....Ive seen West both score a pen and hit the 5 arches on Herries with another one.

On the whole Rhodes hasn't done it...I'm not calling hima waster..I'm not slagging him off...But if we are going to debate the issue...tell me one thing...Is he worth 10 million on the form he has shown?

I know its not his fault..he's blameless ..but this a forum about Wednesday football and Wednesday players, and fans  simply calling it as it is,as they see it is not abuse, its concern.

The fee cannot be justified by the product..thats the equation that is bothering some Wednesday fans, should we simply keep our mouths shut?..If so....

Whats the f.ookin' point of the forum?

[ChinaOwl]

2 minutes ago, asteener1867 said:

Its pointless picking "Instances" in a game of football...I once saw Jeffers curl a beauty in against Hull...What a player?....Ive seen Ola Tidman pull of a world class save....Ive seen West both score a pen and hit the 5 arches on Herries with another one.

On the whole Rhodes hasn't done it...I'm not calling hima waster..I'm not slagging him off...But if we are going to debate the issue...tell me one thing...Is he worth 10 million on the form he has shown?

I know its not his fault..he's blameless ..but this a forum about Wednesday football and Wednesday players, and fans  simply calling it as it is,as they see it is not abuse, its concern.

The fee cannot be justified by the product..thats the equation that is bothering some Wednesday fans, should we simply keep our mouths shut?..If so....

Whats the f.ookin' point of the forum?

 

In simple terms, no he certainly hasn't to date. He was brought in on that kind of package because of his reputation as a predator and lethal goal scorer (I would assume). People can go on about the lack of creativity and sparsity of opportunities because of the style of play. But the thing about the Rhodes' type of striker is they should not need many opportunities to score. You pay that kind of money for a guy that buries half chances or the type that can be out of the game for 89 minutes but, when it matters in that other minute, to hurt the opposition.

 

Jordan Rhodes has had many chances that I can remember that he could and should have scored. Obviously I want him to come good but nobody can say that he has not had enough chance to do what he is paid to do. I was very happy when he signed and backed him all along but I have now lost faith that he can ever be the player I was hoping for.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, cookeh said:

 

err..

what do i think his main strengths are other than his main strengths?

I really have no idea what you're asking.. at least.. if i do understand what you're asking it seems like quite a silly question.

 

I can try and explain his strengths more clearly.. but i'll focus on his main one which is his movement.

Rhodes is not particularly strong or particularly quick.. but he does understand where the ball should go in order to make goalscoring opportunities and he knows how to get there ahead of his man.

 

Watch the Cardiff highlights again if you like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrbdCteP8TU

 

The move at 2:39 is an example of how we don't really use Rhodes well.

At the start, Palmer has come inside, so we have no width on the right at all.

Rhodes makes the run out wide, but Palmer ignores him and rolls it back to Reach.

Reach had seen Rhodes run and tries to play it out to him, but the pass is late and too slow, so the defender steps in.

Reach manages to win it back and he and Rhodes exchange passes.

Rhodes makes the right run in behind the defender, which would let him cut it back across goal, which is really dangerous.

Reach instead opts to put in a cross to 2 tightly marked players and it's so bad it doesn't beat the first man.

 

4:43
Joao squares to Wallace who shoots over.

Again look at where Rhodes is. He's lost his marker and Wallace could just roll the ball into him.

Bamba is wrong footed and if Wallace puts Rhodes in he's got time to turn and be 1 on 1.

Instead Wallace takes a touch and blasts it into the stands.
 

6:15

The Jones freekick.

This is actually really good movement. Rhodes sprints forward, and fakes running infront of the defender.

That makes the defender think that's where he should be and so he tries to muscle infront of Rhodes.

Rhodes knows the ball isn't going that far forward, so checks back, the defender has taken himself out of the game due to Rhodes movement, but unfortunately Rhodes doesn't quite off the ground quick enough and can't keep the header down.

The movement is great tho, excellent manipulation of his marker.

 

6:24

The shot that rebounds to Reach.

At 6:26 you can see Rhodes backing off into the middle. He's doing that to draw the Morrison more central.

Rhodes knows the ball down the outside of Morrison is the best one, so he's trying to create that angle for Joao.

He then holds up and dives in behind Morrison to get on the end of the pass from Joao.

It's not an easy finish as it's coming from behind him and he's got to take it quickly as Bamba is coming over, but he forces the keeper into a save and Reach should slot in the rebound (rather than try and break the net)

 

7:55

Putting Joao in 1v1.

To be honest this situation arises pretty much just from luck. However he jumps on the opportunity, cuts inside Bamba to make the angle for the pass and puts Joao thru perfectly. He knows where Joao should go and makes the angle, while also making Bamba turn so Joao has more time. It's good play, and Joao should slide it in the far corner.

 

8:38

The Joao header.

With 2 men on Wallace, Palmer has few options. Rhodes comes across, steps back into Bamba for a second, which is just enough to let the ball come across him and takes Bamba out of the game. Then delivers a good cross to the back post for the easiest chance of the game, which Joao should bury.

 

So just from the highlights reel of Saturday we have 6 examples of Rhodes play which show his movement and the goals he can score and create. From my memory watching it there were more than just these, but it's easier to just show you the ones on tape.

It's also worth bearing in mind that this is in a team playing 532, with only 3 other attack minded players in the team. Our delivery into the box was poor, and you can see from 2:39 and 4:43 that we need to make better decisions in the final third.

Combine that with more quality coming back or being added (Fox and Palmer are not good crossers of the ball, nor is Wallace these days) and hopefully we'll see more benefit from Rhodes movement. Also, with better finishing from Joao we'd have comfortably won the game, with the two chances that Rhodes made for him.

 

Overall, the Cardiff game gave me good hope that Rhodes is still the same player he was and that we can get the best out of him. He's making great runs and working for the team. If he carries on where he left off on Saturday then I've no doubt he'll make a real difference for us.

Genuine question. Do you have coaching badges?