George Hirst Saga..

[scram]

For all the unknowns in this saga i really cannot understand why some can't see why we wouldn't play a player who won't commit to staying here

 

Seems pretty logical to me - spend our time and resources to hopefully develop a player who will stay

 

We are caught in that impasse where a championship club can get utterly blown away by premier clubs

 

And i know people like to bolster their arguments with "facts"

 

The "fact" is that he plays in Englands 2nd team of his age and scored his domestic goals in the 3rd tier of academy football

 

I remember a kid a few years ago who was the top scorer in the top tier of development football - and all the big clubs were sniffing around - he rejected the deal at his club and went where the grass was bound to be greener

 

He's now playing for Cambridge

[torryowl]

seems to me that if you cross chansiri a player could  spend a lot of time watching his colleagues playing ......which for me isn't a bad thing .

[cowl]

27 minutes ago, scram said:

For all the unknowns in this saga i really cannot understand why some can't see why we wouldn't play a player who won't commit to staying here

 

Seems pretty logical to me - spend our time and resources to hopefully develop a player who will stay

 

We are caught in that impasse where a championship club can get utterly blown away by premier clubs

 

And i know people like to bolster their arguments with "facts"

 

The "fact" is that he plays in Englands 2nd team of his age and scored his domestic goals in the 3rd tier of academy football

 

I remember a kid a few years ago who was the top scorer in the top tier of development football - and all the big clubs were sniffing around - he rejected the deal at his club and went where the grass was bound to be greener

 

He's now playing for Cambridge

 

Because we took this course of action with almost a year of his current contract to run.

 

What I really cannot understand is why some can't see this as being an utterly ridiculous step to take at such an early stage of a negotiation.

 

Are we going to start doing this with every player that enters into the final year of their contract and prevaricates over signing a new deal?

 

We had time to play this out a little, see how it went. There were different options to consider, but instead we just ended it.

 

Does this bode well for everyone?

[scram]

11 minutes ago, cowl said:

 

Because we took this course of action with almost a year of his current contract to run.

 

What I really cannot understand is why some can't see this as being an utterly ridiculous step to take at such an early stage of a negotiation.

 

 

How do you know it was an early stage of negotiating?

 

How do you know that it hadn't been going on for some time and reached a stalemate?

 

There are 2 sides to this - i don't know why the club took the action it did - but i understand if they think there was no more mileage in negotiations then concentrate on the players who want to stay.

 

Virgil Van Dyke and Coutinho both said they wanted away from their clubs this season - both were banished from the team until the players stepped back from their stance and asked to be involved again

 

It happened with Yaya Toure at City

 

Any players absence is always anothers opportunity and who knows - we may get a first team striker come through that may never have had that chance to get precious game and development time - and a chance to catch the eye

[cowl]

4 minutes ago, scram said:

 

 

How do you know it was an early stage of negotiating?

 

How do you know that it hadn't been going on for some time and reached a stalemate?

 

There are 2 sides to this - i don't know why the club took the action it did - but i understand if they think there was no more mileage in negotiations then concentrate on the players who want to stay.

 

Virgil Van Dyke and Coutinho both said they wanted away from their clubs this season - both were banished from the team until the players stepped back from their stance and asked to be involved again

 

It happened with Yaya Toure at City

 

Any players absence is always anothers opportunity and who knows - we may get a first team striker come through that may never have had that chance to get precious game and development time - and a chance to catch the eye

 

Because he completed the pre-season friendlies with the his under 23 colleagues before being prevented from playing any more games once the season kicked off, mid-August, when he had almost a year left to run on his contract, and about five months before the the crucial decision stage of the January transfer window.

 

There was clearly a lot more time to talk. You say stalemate as though it really is chess, a game with fixed rules. She said last month she won't marry you, but now she will - what can I tell you.

 

In any case, if the rationale here is to concentrate on those players who aren't currently in the midst of a contract dispute, then why don't we just loan the kid out anyway? There were apparently willing takers. When Palmer had his loan stint at Tranmere it wasn't until January that he signed a new deal, same with Stoke when we borrowed Marshall from them.

 

We've tried to force a conclusion to this five months before it was necessary.

[Geoffrey]

7 hours ago, scram said:

For all the unknowns in this saga i really cannot understand why some can't see why we wouldn't play a player who won't commit to staying here

 

He's got as long left on his contract as Loovens, Pudil, Wallace and Nuhui who are regularly picked for the first-team squad.

 

His fee will be decided by tribunal if he leaves in the summer. Not letting him play football for a year is likely to devalue him.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Geoffrey

[Geoffrey]

7 hours ago, scram said:

 

And i know people like to bolster their arguments with "facts"

 

The "fact" is that he plays in Englands 2nd team of his age and scored his domestic goals in the 3rd tier of academy football

 

Although his club won't let him train with his age group, he is 18 years old and plays for the England U19s.

That is a fact. Stop telling silly lies.

[malek]

As one of best U-18's in country he was promoted to play for England's 2nd U-20's team at prestigious tournament.

 

[Sonny]

 

58 minutes ago, Geoffrey said:

He's got as long left on his contract as Loovens, Pudil, Wallace and Nuhui who are regularly picked for the first-team squad.

 

Apart from the fact that they are experienced first team players who (as far as we know) have not refused to commit their future to club... great comparison.

[HirstWhoScoredIt]

10 hours ago, scram said:

For all the unknowns in this saga i really cannot understand why some can't see why we wouldn't play a player who won't commit to staying here

 

Seems pretty logical to me - spend our time and resources to hopefully develop a player who will stay

 

We are caught in that impasse where a championship club can get utterly blown away by premier clubs

 

And i know people like to bolster their arguments with "facts"

 

The "fact" is that he plays in Englands 2nd team of his age and scored his domestic goals in the 3rd tier of academy football

 

I remember a kid a few years ago who was the top scorer in the top tier of development football - and all the big clubs were sniffing around - he rejected the deal at his club and went where the grass was bound to be greener

 

He's now playing for Cambridge

Whilst agreeing with the vast majority of what you say, surely the point in playing him is to maximise the return on our investment.

 

Ultimately, the point of an academy is to make money. Either by saving the club transfer fees or by generating transfer fees.

 

He scored over 40 goals last season and presumably with further development would have been aiming at a better goals per games ratio this year.  That coupled with his England success and the amount of interested PL clubs could have resulted in a decent tribunal fee.

 

Alternatively, loaning him to a League Two club could have been another no lose gamble.  It’s not taking up the space of one of our youngsters and if he hits 20 goals we’d get a decent figure for him.

 

As it stands, we will get very little.

 

Our strategy makes no sense and will not maximise our return on investment.

 

Of course, he could have gone to

League Two and done nothing but we wouldn’t have lost anything from this approach.

 

I know for a 100% fact that Chesterfield wanted to take him and we refused. Seems nonsensical to me.

Edited November 29, 2017 by HirstWhoScoredIt

[scram]

3 hours ago, Geoffrey said:

Although his club won't let him train with his age group, he is 18 years old and plays for the England U19s.

That is a fact. Stop telling silly lies.

 

He wasn't selected for the u19 squad which won the euros this summer

 

He was selected for the u20 squad which won the world cup this summer

 

He played in the young squad (mostly u18's) which won the Toulon Tournament and he did very well - the squad was deliberately young because the first choice players were otherwise engaged in the u19 or u20 euro's/world cup

 

You're looking pretty silly arguing with facts - just because you don't like those facts!

[OxonOwl]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_FIFA_U-20_World_Cup_squads#_England

[Reallondonowl]

On 24/11/2017 at 22:15, Dirkster said:

 

 

I don't know the truth, like most, but the snippets being leaked out from the player's side (mainly Dad) are lacking somewhat in integrity IMO.

 

 

Exactly - so why post drivel and slag off a Wednesday legend when you have no clue but merrily question the integrity of David Hirst ?!?! If you have nothing to do why not swallow dive off Hyde Park or Park Hill. 

To me this is the contractual equivalent of the home away and third kit combined and I have every respect for the Hirsts not stooping to the level of publicising what ACTUALLY went on. 

 

PS - this may not be the most useless post of this particular thread on GH it just happens to be the first I read which made my blood boil so I reserve the right to come back on the topic.

can I suggest the mods nominate a panel to adjudicate as like goal of the month culminates in goal of the season, we will end up with “stupid Malicious based on total conjecture and zero facts comment of the month on the GH situation” culminating in an award at the end of the season which I predict with involve a large trophy with a phallus sticking straight out of a particularly Boney bonehead.

[fred mciver]

He won't sign because Doyen will try and move him abroad for free or on cheap.

 

Meaning mega money for Hirsty.

[Guest Xxxxxxxxcxcc]

5 hours ago, Geoffrey said:

He's got as long left on his contract as Loovens, Pudil, Wallace and Nuhui who are regularly picked for the first-team squad.

 

His fee will be decided by tribunal if he leaves in the summer. Not letting him play football for a year is likely to devalue him.

Conversely if he sustained a serious injury seeing out his contract with another club; his value would likely plummet.

[malek]

Why not letting Thompson decide if he wants to pick him for U-23 squad or not ? I'm quite sure that he doesn't have comodity to pick Hirst if he wants to.

 

If Hirst played U-23's would have been better team for sure, and he would generate interest from scouts and managers, helping other lads generating some interest in themselves from such.

[Guest Xxxxxxxxcxcc]

1 hour ago, Reallondonowl said:

Exactly - so why post drivel and slag off a Wednesday legend when you have no clue but merrily question the integrity of David Hirst ?!?! If you have nothing to do why not swallow dive off Hyde Park or Park Hill. 

To me this is the contractual equivalent of the home away and third kit combined and I have every respect for the Hirsts not stooping to the level of publicising what ACTUALLY went on. 

 

PS - this may not be the most useless post of this particular thread on GH it just happens to be the first I read which made my blood boil so I reserve the right to come back on the topic.

can I suggest the mods nominate a panel to adjudicate as like goal of the month culminates in goal of the season, we will end up with “stupid Malicious based on total conjecture and zero facts comment of the month on the GH situation” culminating in an award at the end of the season which I predict with involve a large trophy with a phallus sticking straight out of a particularly Boney bonehead.

 

There have been leaks attributed to Hirst senior. Loved him as a player but IMO the leaks are at best unfortunate. I can live with your contempt so won't be jumping off tall buildings. You can if you like but probably not a good idea.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Xxxxxxxxcxcc

[Minton]

47 minutes ago, fred mciver said:

He won't sign because Doyen will try and move him abroad for free or on cheap.

 

Meaning mega money for Hirsty.

For the last bloody time people, we get a fee from a tribunal no matter where he goes. He could move to play for Venus FC and we get a tribunal fee. Moving abroad has NO impact on what we get, the rules that apply to UK clubs apply to foreign clubs too. 

[cowl]

12 minutes ago, Minton said:

For the last bloody time people, we get a fee from a tribunal no matter where he goes. He could move to play for Venus FC and we get a tribunal fee. Moving abroad has NO impact on what we get, the rules that apply to UK clubs apply to foreign clubs too. 

 

If he goes abroad we are only due a 'training' compensation which has been mandated by FIFA. It's nominal.

[Guest Hillsborough Mole]

How the compensation system works.  

 

Where a professional player, under the age of 24, has been offered a new contract by his club (subject to certain requirements that the offer must meet set out in Rule 64.3 of the Football League Rules) and he rejects that offer in order to take up the opportunity to sign for another club, compensation will be payable.   This is not to be confused with training compensation under the EPPP regime (that applies to Academy players), an entirely different proposition.

 

In the majority of cases, clubs will reach mutual agreement on a compensation fee. However, in others the two clubs’ valuations will differ, sometimes significantly, and the matter will need to be settled through an arbitration process.

 

That process is operated by the Professional Football Compensation Committee (PFCC). The PFCC is incorporated under the rules of both The Football League and Premier League, and forms part of the collective bargaining agreement with the Professional Footballers’ Association.  The PFCC comprises of an independent Chairman, appointees from The Football League and Premier League (as appropriate), an appointee of The Professional Footballers’ Association and an appointee of the League Managers’ Association.

 

PFCC hearings require each club to provide evidence to support their valuation of the player in question. In making its judgment the committee will take into account the costs of both clubs in operating a Football Academy or Centre of Excellence, as well as the age and playing record of the player, the length of time he was registered with his original club, the terms offered by both clubs, the status of the two clubs, the substantiated interest shown by other clubs in acquiring the registration of the player and any amounts paid by the original club to acquire the player in the first place.

 

Unlike FIFA’s formulaic approach which provides foreign clubs with a fixed tariff for compensation, this domestic process is said to provide the advantage of  allowing greater flexibility in setting the level of compensation according to the merits of each individual case.  The counter to that is that – unlike with the FIFA tariff – there is always inherent uncertainty, and this in my experience can work against players ; particularly lower down the Football League  where clubs often feel that they can not afford to carry the risk of uncertainty.  Or they may simply feel that the signing of a player governed by the PFCC regime is too complex.

 

In deciding on a compensation figure, it is not uncommon for the PFCC to set fees that build as the player becomes more established at first team level.   It has now become quite usual for clubs to receive a basic compensation fee with further payments becoming due on the player’s debut, following a certain numbers of first-team appearances and after international appearances. It is also usual for there to be a sell-on fee should the player be sold at a profit at any point in the future.

 

Whilst the system is therefore uncertain, and it is difficult to advise a club or a player with firm precision as to what the likely level of compensation will be  (and when acting for a player, this has to be a crucial factor in considering any new contract offer that has been made) I tend to use the following PFCC decisions as a framework (as they cover a good range of players in terms of their ability and status as at the point of the dispute).  Even though each case will be different, in one’s submissions to the PFCC it would be perfectly proper to rely upon these precedents.

 

GEORGE PORTER

 

Porter had made 34 league appearances for Leyton Orient between the age of 18 and 20.  He rejected a new two year contract offer, and instead signed a three year contract with the Championship club Burnley.

The PFCC decided that Burnley should pay Leyton Orient an initial compensation fee of £90,000.

Additionally, Burnley were to pay Leyton Orient a further £17,500 after the player has made 15, 30, 45 and 60 appearances (i.e. a total further potential payment of £70,000).

Burnley would also pay Leyton Orient a further sum of £100,000 if Burnley were promoted to the Premier League in the next three seasons and assuming the player remains at the club and had played at least 23 matches in the promotion season.

Leyton Orient should receive 16.5% of any profit made by Burnley in selling the player to another club at any point in the future.

 

AARON CRESWELL

 

Aaron Creswell had made 70 or so league appearances for Tranmere Rovers when, aged 21, he rejected a new long term contract offer.  He signed for the Championship club Ipswich Town on a three year contract.

The PFCC decided that Ipswich Town should pay Tranmere Rovers an initial compensation fee of £240,000.

An additional £45,000 was ordered in respect of the player making 15, 30, 45 and 60 appearances for Ipswich Town.

 An additional £100,000 was ordered should Ipswich Town achieve promotion to the Premier League in the next 3 seasons.

Tranmere Rovers are to receive 20% of any profit made by Ipswich Town in selling the player to another club at any point in the future.

 

ROBERT HALL

 

Robert Hall had signed a professional contract at West Ham aged 17, and made four first team league appearances for West Ham.  He also enjoyed successful loan spells, including in particular at Birmingham City and represented England at under 16 through to under 19 level.   Allowing his contract to expire, aged 20 he signed a three year contract at Bolton Wanderers.

 The PFCC decided that Bolton should pay West Ham an initial compensation fee of £450,000.

 Additionally, £250,000 will be due if Bolton are promoted to the Premier League in the next 3 seasons

£2,500 per appearance was ordered for the first 100 appearances (for Bolton) in the Championship, or  £10,000 per appearance for the first 100 appearances (for Bolton) if in the Premier League

20% of any profit made by Bolton Wanderers in selling the player to another club at any point in the future will be payable to West Ham.

 

ANTHONY STRAKER

 

Anthony Straker joined Aldershot aged 18 having been released by Crystal Palace and went on to make in the region of 200 appearances in the Conference and League Two.   He rejected a new contract, and aged 22 signed for Southend United on a two year deal.

The PFCC decided that Southend United should pay Aldershot an initial compensation fee of £17,500.

Additionally, Southend United would  pay an additional £5,000 if they won promotion to League One during the two year contract.

Southend will also pay Aldershot 20% of any profit it makes from selling the player to another club at any point in the future.

 

JAMES COLLINS

 

James Collins joined League Two club Shrewsbury Town as 21 year old striker in January 2011, having previously been an Aston Villa player (who made no first team appearances for Villa).

Quickly establishing himself as a first-team regular, James appeared 66 times in the League for Shrewsbury between 2011 and 2012, scoring 22 League goals.  In the 2011/2012 season, Shrewsbury won promotion and James was their top scorer.

In the summer of 2012, only 18 months after signing for Shrewsbury, an out-of-contract James signed for Swindon Town, who themselves had just been promoted to League One.

The PFCC decided that Swindon Town should pay Shrewsbury an initial compensation fee of £140,000.

Additionally, further payments of £20,000 after 15, 30, 45 and 60 appearances (totalling up to £80,000) would be due.

Swindon would also pay Shrewsbury 20% of any profit it makes from selling the player to another club at any point in the future.

 

TROY ARCHIBALD-HENVILLE

 

Troy signed for Exeter City in February 2010 having previously enjoyed a successful loan spell for them (from his then parent club Tottenham Hotspur).

For the then League One club, Troy made 115 League appearances before his contract expired in the summer of 2012.  He signed for League One club Swindon Town.

The PFCC ordered that Swindon should pay Exeter City an initial compensation fee of £200,000.

Additionally, Swindon were to pay up to £80,000 based on future appearances.

Swindon were also ordered to pay £40,000 if they gained promotion to the Championship whilst Troy remained an employee and £100,000 further if they gained Premier League promotion

Swindon were ordered to pay Exeter 20% of any profit they made on selling the player to another club in the future.

 

JAMES DUNNE

 

Midfielder James Dunne joined then League One club Exeter City in the summer of 2009 after a youth career at Arsenal.

James appeared 110 times in the League for Exeter before the club were relegated in the summer of 2012, at the point of his contract expiry. James would sign for then League One club Stevenage.

The PFCC ordered that Stevenage should pay Exeter City an initial compensation fee of £75,000.

Additionally, Stevenage were to pay a further £25,000 after 30 and 60 appearances.

Stevenage were also ordered to pay to Exeter 20% of any profit they made in the event of a future sale of the player.

 

JED STEER

 

Jed had spent all of his youth career at Norwich  City and turned professional aged 17.  He made his first team debut for Norwich City in the FA Cup, away to WBA, in what would be his only first team appearance for the Canaries.  He enjoyed successful loan periods at  Cambridge and Yeovil Town, and played for England U16, U17 and U19.   Jed was regarded by Norwich City as one of the best young goalkeepers in the country. He allowed his contract to expire and signed for Premier League club Aston Villa, immediately becoming their no.2 keeper.

The PFCC ordered that Aston Villa pay Norwich City an initial compensation fee of £450,000.

Additionally, if Jed represents England Under 21 and the full senior side, Norwich City will be paid a further £225,000.

Appearances for Aston Villa trigger further payments, which in total could amount to a maximum sum of £500,000.

Aston Villa will also need to pay Norwich 20% of any profit they make from selling the player to another club at any point in the future.

 

DANNY INGS

 

Danny Ings signed for Burnley as a 19 year old in the summer of 2011 after many years at Bournemouth.  It was reported that Burnley had paid a transfer fee in the region of £1 million.

Danny appeared 122 times for Burnley in the League, scoring 38 goals, with 11 of those goals coming in the 2014/15 season in the Premier League.

Signing for Liverpool in the summer of 2015 as a free agent, the PFCC would ultimately order Liverpool to pay Burnley an initial compensation fee of £6.5 million.

Additionally, Liverpool must pay up to £1.5 million based on further appearances and also 20% of any profit they make in the event that they sell the player to another club.

 

CURTIS NELSON

 

Curtis had spent his schoolboy years at Stoke City but after being released at 16 he joined Plymouth Argyle’s academy in 2008

In 2010 Curtis signed his first professional contract with Plymouth and between 2010 and 2016 he started 211 Football League games for them

Upon his contract expiring in the summer of 2016 Curtis, then aged 23, left the League Two club to sign for League One club Oxford United

The PFCC ordered that Oxford United pay Plymouth an initial compensation fee of £200,000.

Additionally, appearances and other factors would trigger further payments that could total another £80,000