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Holmowl

Loovens and Lees

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Loovens offers nothing going forward and shouldnt be starting home games. This was painfully evident on saturday.

 

Lees hasnt hit the emaculate heights of last 2 seasons but is slightly more assured on the ball. He needs a better partner.

 

I'd like to see what Venancio plays like but we dont have the luxury of being able to experiment at the minute.

 

Lees & Loovens are a very sound defensive partnership and have been for years now, but with the way this league is changing, you need more and more from your defenders every season.

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Can't understand why he doesn't try a back 3 with Lees, Loovens and Van Aken, solid defensively whilst having Van Aken distribution.

 

Hunt and Reach as wing backs.

 

Lee Bannan and Butterfield in the middle

 

Hooper and Rhodes up front!

 

Good players in their best positions.

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27 minutes ago, tarn owl said:

Loovens and Lees are the best centre half pairing we’ve had in a long time. Not sure why fans look for an issue with their distribution. They both control the ball well and get it to bannan, Lee or butters. Our issues then start with lack of movement and creativity up front. No issues at the back and we are so lucky to have a solid base. Carlos is lucky too as that trio at keeper and centre back was here before him. Carlos has done little to improve our forward play. Stick to criticisms of the right areas. 

The issue is that Bannan has to drop very deep to receive the ball from either (he was essentially playing left back for parts of Saturday's game). Bannan is his most effective just inside the left side of the final third.

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The Venancio one is a bizarre one. Captain of a top Portuguese side, and his boyhood club. Linked with lots of top championship clubs Leeds and Derby to name two. Captained the side against our toughest foreign pre season friendly in which we drew. Not made one appearance or doesn’t even play in u23’s.

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Clean sheets are great, but I'd rather win 5-4 than draw 0-0.

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11 minutes ago, Woodie said:

The Venancio one is a bizarre one. Captain of a top Portuguese side, and his boyhood club. Linked with lots of top championship clubs Leeds and Derby to name two. Captained the side against our toughest foreign pre season friendly in which we drew. Not made one appearance or doesn’t even play in u23’s.

he's back up for lees, do you think we should drop him .........

 

7 hours ago, StudentOwl said:

So do I, but I also like us to score goals and points to be won

Bottom line is as things currently stand we score more with van Aken in the side and don't drop points. I'm sure we can all agree the hierarchy of importance at a football match is

 

Points won

Ability to score

Ability to not concede

 

I would rather have point 1 and 2 hit than point 1 and 3, and as things currently stand van Aken offers that whereas Loovens doesn't. As I say, maybe over the next half-a-dozen games Loovens will show that the defensive assurance he offers is more important and we see us get more points. Until then I think the jury's out as to who best to start

if you score in every game theres no guarantee that you cant lose  ,if you don't concede it's guaranteed that you don't lose ..........I think keeping clean sheets was the core reason why had had 2 good seasons , so far this season we have struggled to do that but since loovens return there's no doubt that the  back four looks more secure .

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25 minutes ago, torryowl said:

 

if you score in every game theres no guarantee that you cant lose  ,if you don't concede it's guaranteed that you don't lose ..........I think keeping clean sheets was the core reason why had had 2 good seasons , so far this season we have struggled to do that but since loovens return there's no doubt that the  back four looks more secure .

I would also agree, but again... if it isn't costing us any points to play van Aken, what's the harm in playing him? 

The whole Loovens or van Aken thing for me encapsulates Carlos' mentality. Do you go for the CB that's safe or the one that's a risk? Of course cautious Carlos goes for the former, and if it was resulting in an upturn in our points tally I would agree with that decision entirely. But it hasn't.

 

Complete hypothetical, but say Loovens plays until Christmas but keeps roughly the same stats as is current... ie about 1.4 points per game, about 0.8 goals per game etc... would you still prefer Loovens? Or would that be enough to show that actually Loovens offers no improvement to our results and at least with van Aken in the team we will play with a more dynamic and attacking game, and at the end of the day we would rather that as long as results don't suffer?

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4 minutes ago, StudentOwl said:

I would also agree, but again... if it isn't costing us any points to play van Aken, what's the harm in playing him? 

The whole Loovens or van Aken thing for me encapsulates Carlos' mentality. Do you go for the CB that's safe or the one that's a risk? Of course cautious Carlos goes for the former, and if it was resulting in an upturn in our points tally I would agree with that decision entirely. But it hasn't.

 

Complete hypothetical, but say Loovens plays until Christmas but keeps roughly the same stats as is current... ie about 1.4 points per game, about 0.8 goals per game etc... would you still prefer Loovens? Or would that be enough to show that actually Loovens offers no improvement to our results and at least with van Aken in the team we will play with a more dynamic and attacking game, and at the end of the day we would rather that as long as results don't suffer?

loovens all day long for me ......I think his defensive influence far outweighs van aken's creative impact ..

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1 minute ago, torryowl said:

loovens all day long for me ......I think his defensive influence far outweighs van aken's creative impact ..

Are you Carlos? 

 

Just to be clear:

Option A: A CB that means we concede fewer goals but also score fewer goals. He's old and arguably past his best

Option B: A CB that means we concede more goals but also score more goals. He's young and only going to improve with game time

Both Option A and Option B result in us getting the same number of points

 

And you'd go for Option A. I know it's only a hypothetical, but I'm just trying to be crystal clear about what you're saying here. If all three of the above points were true, you'd go for Option A? 

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6 minutes ago, StudentOwl said:

Are you Carlos? 

 

Just to be clear:

Option A: A CB that means we concede fewer goals but also score fewer goals. He's old and arguably past his best

Option B: A CB that means we concede more goals but also score more goals. He's young and only going to improve with game time

Both Option A and Option B result in us getting the same number of points

 

And you'd go for Option A. I know it's only a hypothetical, but I'm just trying to be crystal clear about what you're saying here. If all three of the above points were true, you'd go for Option A? 

he's old and past his best and yet still a far more reliable defender than van aken ....how do you know that van aken will improve ?not all young players improve as they get older and he's hardly a young kid is he at 23 .........your obviously seeing something in van aken that i'm not coz all I see is in 8 games he's cost us 3 maybe 4  goals and been lucky on a couple of occasions to get away with blatant errors ..........you lost me on the options but if one them is you keep a clean sheet then that's the one I go for . 

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3 hours ago, thatladfromchap said:

The issue is that Bannan has to drop very deep to receive the ball from either (he was essentially playing left back for parts of Saturday's game). Bannan is his most effective just inside the left side of the final third.

Look at the rest of the pitch when Lees and Loovens look up to make a pass, Is Hooper coming short, is Rhodes making runs in behind, is butters in acres of space. No they are all stood like statues. if they were that free and in tons of space Lees and Loovens would give them the ball, they aren't that bad at passing. Their job is to keep clean sheets and distribute the ball to creative players. If Bannan has to come deep for the ball, it is because no one is making space and screaming for the ball up front. Where is the criticism of Wallace, Rhodes, Hooper, Reach, Butterfield, Bannan, even Hunt and Fox. There are 8 players there all with far more responsibility to be creative. As long as Lees and Loovens don't give the ball away they have done their job. It is Bannans responsibility to play higher and then get in space. Lees and Loovens have to pass the ball to full backs and the keeper because no one is on their toes making space.

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For me the important factor in this is Hutchinson. Get him fit and I'd play Van Aken.

 

Letting Hutchinson sit in front of the centre backs will give that added protection, (could even revert to a back three) whilst allowing Bannan, Wallace and Hooper to play ten or twenty yards higher up the pitch. 

 

Whilst Van Aken has looked great with the ball, defensively he has definitely been suspect. Hopefully having a better defensive shield in the form of Hutch will help him out whilst not sacrificing our ability to play out from the back. 

 

Personally i think it's crying out for three at the back with Reach and Hunt down the wings but I cannot see Carlos changing from 4 at the back anytime soon. 

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As for the Van Aken and Loovens discussion I think we need to give Van Aken playing time to develop. I'd personally play Loovens in tougher games and Van Aken in easier games.

In all our league games this year we have only conceded more than 1 goal on 3 occasions, Bolton, Derby and Sheff U. Van Aken played at Bolton and against Sheff U, Loovens got sent off after 4 minutes at Derby. I still give Loovens the edge.

If we most of the time only concede 1 goal then the main issues are upfront, where is the creativity and goals?

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6 hours ago, jonnyowl said:

Can't understand why he doesn't try a back 3 with Lees, Loovens and Van Aken, solid defensively whilst having Van Aken distribution.

 

Hunt and Reach as wing backs.

 

Lee Bannan and Butterfield in the middle

 

Hooper and Rhodes up front!

 

Good players in their best positions.

 

 

This all the way for me , you could  also fit FF , Abdi , Hutch and Boyd into that formation . 

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Not really a Loovens fan, need much much better. Does an ok job statistically, but we set up defensive anyway.

 

Too casual on the ball, sense of urgency or danger seems lacking these days also. He obviously brings qualities like organisation and he reads the game well.

 

My main aim concern though is Lees decline when not playing along side him. He turns 27 soon, with over 300 appearances, most at championship level and yet it's almost like he needs babysitting by Loovens. He really needs to step up his game, have more confidence and show more leadership on the pitch when he's partnering a younger centre back like Van Aken. I'm a Lees fan, but I believe there is better to come. 

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4 hours ago, tarn owl said:

Look at the rest of the pitch when Lees and Loovens look up to make a pass, Is Hooper coming short, is Rhodes making runs in behind, is butters in acres of space. No they are all stood like statues. if they were that free and in tons of space Lees and Loovens would give them the ball, they aren't that bad at passing. Their job is to keep clean sheets and distribute the ball to creative players. If Bannan has to come deep for the ball, it is because no one is making space and screaming for the ball up front. Where is the criticism of Wallace, Rhodes, Hooper, Reach, Butterfield, Bannan, even Hunt and Fox. There are 8 players there all with far more responsibility to be creative. As long as Lees and Loovens don't give the ball away they have done their job. It is Bannans responsibility to play higher and then get in space. Lees and Loovens have to pass the ball to full backs and the keeper because no one is on their toes making space.

I'm sorry but Loovens and Lees are awful passers of the football. They actually have to stand sideways on to pass forward have a close watch next game. If they were any good they'd have more confidence to launch it up field rather than letting Westwood do it. Yes Van Aken has looked a bit dodgy but he will move forward and has played some incisive passes. 

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43 minutes ago, peacock1961 said:

I'm sorry but Loovens and Lees are awful passers of the football. They actually have to stand sideways on to pass forward have a close watch next game. If they were any good they'd have more confidence to launch it up field rather than letting Westwood do it. Yes Van Aken has looked a bit dodgy but he will move forward and has played some incisive passes. 

What are you comparing them to when saying awful passers? They don't give away the ball often. Yes Van Aken has played more forward passes, but in the games he played we didn't score goals for fun either. No matter who boots the ball forward in Westwood, Lees or Loovens there is no one moving to pass the ball to. Instead of shouting at them to pass it forward look at who they can pass it to. If you do you will see statues, no one running the channels or coming short for the ball. They aren't the best passers, that's because they are centre backs. It is Bannan and Lee or butterfields job to be creative along with the wingers and wing backs, not centre backs. There job is clean sheets and a solid base, they are doing their job. Maybe god forbid Bannan, Hooper, Wallace and Rhodes are the ones failing.

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On 20/11/2017 at 11:45, StudentOwl said:

Goals scored when van Aken plays: 13 from 8 games (1.6pg)

Goals scored when Loovens plays: 5 from 6 games (0.8pg)

 

Points won when van Aken plays: 11 (1.4 points per game)

Points won when Loovens plays: 8 (1.3 points per game)

 

Average league position of teams van Aken has played against (as of today): 12th

Average league position of teams Loovens has played against (as of today): 11th

 

This (inadvertently) pretty much has been my thinking for a while... van Aken is being unfairly judged. With him in the side we haven't really suffered in terms of performances, indeed the only real change we see is a decrease in the goals scored in the game. There's no doubt he is a better defender than van Aken, but having a CB that offers a quicker pass to maintain tempo is a powerful asset for a side that can't create any of their own. I think it's very easy to look at the clean sheet side of things and see an obvious improvement in that regard and be happy, especially with a CB because ultimately defending's their job. But don't overlook the other facets that a CB can bring, especially in the modern game. 

 

I'd be happy with either starting, but don't underestimate the power of the forward pass

 

You my friend need to get out more! lol

Wondered previously if playing them as a 3 would work.

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35 minutes ago, tarn owl said:

What are you comparing them to when saying awful passers? They don't give away the ball often. Yes Van Aken has played more forward passes, but in the games he played we didn't score goals for fun either. No matter who boots the ball forward in Westwood, Lees or Loovens there is no one moving to pass the ball to. Instead of shouting at them to pass it forward look at who they can pass it to. If you do you will see statues, no one running the channels or coming short for the ball. They aren't the best passers, that's because they are centre backs. It is Bannan and Lee or butterfields job to be creative along with the wingers and wing backs, not centre backs. There job is clean sheets and a solid base, they are doing their job. Maybe god forbid Bannan, Hooper, Wallace and Rhodes are the ones failing.

If you played you were obviously a defender. I played upfront and if I had to wait for the ball as long as our lot do i'd have soon got bored and tired of running a left channel just to see one CB pass to the other, run the right channel and its back to the full back, through the centre backs to a midfielder, back to the other full back who now under pressure, tips it to the keeper who whacks it up front, where I might be or not be. 30 minutes of that and Mo Farrah would become a statue.

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