Loovens and Lees

[GPM]

Loovens would not get into the starting 11 of any other side pushing for top 6.

 

Like the majority of our expensively assembled squad he was a good player 3+ years ago but now he is a liability.

[Hack-Abusi]

be interesting to see Loovens and Van Aken play together .. VA being the player to bring the ball out

 

I've absolutely no issue with Loovens and he's been instrumental in our solid backline over the past few seasons alongside Lees or Hutchinson ..

 

I'm surprised that many complain about him when he improves us no end!

 

But yeah, we do need a player in his mould who's in their mid twenties

[York_Owl]

9 hours ago, Holmowl said:

 

Could be worse. Remember Laurie Madden....brought the ball down out of the air on a sixpence, eased the ball out of his feet like a dream, made himself space away from his opponent like a Rolls-Royce, then calmly and serenely curled an exquisite ball into row D of the South Stand.

That’s defending  

[cognacbarnowl]

8 hours ago, StudentOwl said:

Goals scored when van Aken plays: 13 from 8 games (1.6pg)

Goals scored when Loovens plays: 5 from 6 games (0.8pg)

 

Points won when van Aken plays: 11 (1.4 points per game)

Points won when Loovens plays: 8 (1.3 points per game)

 

Average league position of teams van Aken has played against (as of today): 12th

Average league position of teams Loovens has played against (as of today): 11th

 

This (inadvertently) pretty much has been my thinking for a while... van Aken is being unfairly judged. With him in the side we haven't really suffered in terms of performances, indeed the only real change we see is a decrease in the goals scored in the game. There's no doubt he is a better defender than van Aken, but having a CB that offers a quicker pass to maintain tempo is a powerful asset for a side that can't create any of their own. I think it's very easy to look at the clean sheet side of things and see an obvious improvement in that regard and be happy, especially with a CB because ultimately defending's their job. But don't overlook the other facets that a CB can bring, especially in the modern game. 

 

I'd be happy with either starting, but don't underestimate the power of the forward pass

 

 

 

I'd like to see how a back three of Lees , Loovens and Van Aken would fare. Loovens could be the steadying influence on Van Aken the same as he is with Lees.

[DobbinTheDonkey]

9 hours ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

I love the fact that Lees always looks more assured with Loovens at the side of him. I'm a fan of clean sheets. Esepcially when we don't look like scoring.

 

 

I just wish old Glenn could pass the ball more than 6 inches so our midfield weren't having to come and fetch it all along.

 

 

I don't, it worries me. 

[torryowl]

good players lees and loovens .......

[cognacbarnowl]

6 hours ago, mcmigo said:

Loovens taking the sting out of the game is, I am sure, a deliberate strategy at times.

 

As I have always said, centre backs are there to defend and keep clean sheets.  These two do that very well.  They are a great combination.  Lees is a rough diamond, has decent quality but gets stuck in.  Loovens has been there and done it and has the pedigree of a rolls royce.  Not many in our league have played centre back against Ronaldo.

 

 

 

 

As per another fred. I hope that CC doesn't read this post as , if he sees the name Ronaldo he might revert to his old defensive strategies and put the shackles back on the lads   Expect tomorrow night's line up to be 

                              Dawson       Westwood      Wildsmith

 

 Hunt  Palmer Vanancio ?? Lees  Loovens  Van Aken    Pudil    Fox 

[peacock1961]

9 hours ago, Holmowl said:

8 goals conceded in their last 12 full games together.

 

0 Bristol City

1 Villa

1 Millwall

1 Preston 

1 Udders

0 Udders 

0 Ipswich

1 Derby

1 QPR

1 Newcastle

0 Rotherham 

1 Barnsley 

 

I know Loovens is less and less popular, and that many fans feel we need better distribution from our CBs, but that is one hell of a firm foundation.

 

A hugely under-valued partnership.

 

 

lies damn lies and statistics and all that, but didn't they both start against Derby recently where we conceded 2.???

Then again Loovens got sent off after a daft challenge so technically they weren't together for a full game.

 

massive mistake letting Sasso go.

[Stoop]

I doubt we would have had our pants pulled down by the pigs with Loovens in the side organising everyone. The mans a rolls Royce of a defender

[Mickjj]

8 hours ago, RocketOwl said:

 

 

Loovens is slow at passing the ball out but half the time it's because he has no options.

Bannan was always within two feet of him on Saturday

[MrsHall]

9 hours ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

I love the fact that Lees always looks more assured with Loovens at the side of him. I'm a fan of clean sheets. Esepcially when we don't look like scoring.

 

 

I just wish old Glenn could pass the ball more than 6 inches so our midfield weren't having to come and fetch it all along.

 

I wish he would head it to one of our players a bit more. UTO.

[Jim]

We miss Loovens when he's not available. Lees in particular is not as effective. I reckon we might get 1 or 2 more seasons out of Glenn but Van Aken has to be the long term option for us. That said I think Lees will move on next summer if we're still in the championship.

[Lord Snooty]

9 hours ago, Holmowl said:

 

Isnt he a bit old?

 

A tad. 

 

But pace isn't a requirement...

[StudentOwl]

2 hours ago, Great Big Galaa said:

We miss Loovens when he's not available. Lees in particular is not as effective. I reckon we might get 1 or 2 more seasons out of Glenn but Van Aken has to be the long term option for us. That said I think Lees will move on next summer if we're still in the championship.

Again... do we?

 

This season we've been no worse off with van Aken playing when compared to Loovens. 

It's clear that we get more clean-sheets with Glenn in the side and Lees looks much more assured, but it's also true that we don't drop points and we score more goals as a team with van Aken playing. Again, it's so easy to say that we miss Loovens because of the clean-sheet thing, but looking beyond that I think it's actually hard to justify the general statement that we miss him. Certainly for the season so far there's no evidence of that.

 

Maybe over the next few weeks we'll see our points per game etc markedly improve now Glenn's in the side. But if in another half-a-dozen fixture's time with Loovens and Lees as our starting pair we still see no improvement vs van Aken's gametime, I will be the first to say "I told you so" 

Edited November 20, 2017 by StudentOwl

[torryowl]

4 minutes ago, StudentOwl said:

Again... do we?

 

This season we've been no worse off with van Aken playing when compared to Loovens. 

It's clear that we get more clean-sheets with Glenn in the side and Lees looks much more assured, but it's also true that we don't drop points and we score more goals as a team with van Aken playing. Again, it's so easy to say that we miss Loovens because of the clean-sheet thing, but looking beyond that I think it's actually hard to justify the general statement that we miss him. Certainly for the season so far there's no evidence of that.

 

Maybe over the next few weeks we'll see our points per game etc markedly improve now Glenn's in the side. But if in another half-a-dozen fixture's time with Loovens and Lees as our starting pair we still see no improvement vs van Aken's gametime, I will be the first to say "I told you so" 

i'm a stats man and if we have done better with van aken then it's hard to argue against him starting ........all I will say is van aken in the few games he's played as made more mistakes  than loovens as  in the 4 years he's been here. 

[StudentOwl]

11 minutes ago, torryowl said:

i'm a stats man and if we have done better with van aken then it's hard to argue against him starting ........all I will say is van aken in the few games he's played as made more mistakes  than loovens as  in the 4 years he's been here. 

Might be a tad hyperbolic... but let's be honest... it's ruddy obvious that van Aken has more mistakes in him than Loovens 

But swings and roundabouts innit... yeah he's making more in the way of butt-clenching errors, but if we're not being punished for them in terms of points...

 

I just find it an interesting double-standard almost. 

On the one hand we have half-a-dozen threads after every game saying how boring and ponderous we are on the ball

On the other we have 90% of the forum saying they'd rather have a CB start that's slow and ponderous on the ball and although results in us conceding fewer goals, also means we don't score as many.

 

I don't want to overstate the role Loovens has in us scoring goals, he's a defender for god's sake and it's daft to suggest that we score half the number of goals in games with him because of him. There are plenty of other players who should be taking responsibility for that particular malaise. But, as I say... don't underestimate the power of the forward pass and the more positive mentality having a defender confident on the ball can give.

I haven't done it, but I bet if you compared a Barry Bannan heatmap for a game where Loovens vs van Aken plays behind him, you'd see the little dude far further up the pitch in one of them. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by StudentOwl

[torryowl]

2 minutes ago, StudentOwl said:

Might be a tad hyperbolic... but let's be honest... it's ruddy obvious that van Aken has more mistakes in him than Loovens 

But swings and roundabouts innit... yeah he's making more in the way of butt-clenching errors, but if we're not being punished for them in terms of points...

 

I just find it an interesting double-standard almost. 

On the one hand we have half-a-dozen threads after every game saying how boring and ponderous we are on the ball

On the other we have 90% of the forum saying they'd rather have a CB start that's slow and ponderous on the ball and although results in us conceding fewer goals, also means we don't score as many.

 

I don't want to overstate the role Loovens has in us scoring goals, he's a defender for god's sake and it's daft to suggest that we score half the number of goals in games with him because of him. There are plenty of other players who should be taking responsibility for that particular malaise. But, as I say... don't underestimate the power of the forward pass and the more positive mentality having a defender confident on the ball can give.

I haven't done it, but I bet if you compared a Barry Bannan heatmap for a game where Loovens vs van Aken plays behind him, you'd see the little dude far further up the pitch in one of them. 

call me old fashioned but I like my centre half to be able to defend ......van aken clearly at this stage of his career with us  cannot do it as good as loovens .

[StudentOwl]

7 minutes ago, torryowl said:

call me old fashioned but I like my centre half to be able to defend ......van aken clearly at this stage of his career with us  cannot do it as good as loovens .

So do I, but I also like us to score goals and points to be won

Bottom line is as things currently stand we score more with van Aken in the side and don't drop points. I'm sure we can all agree the hierarchy of importance at a football match is

 

Points won

Ability to score

Ability to not concede

 

I would rather have point 1 and 2 hit than point 1 and 3, and as things currently stand van Aken offers that whereas Loovens doesn't. As I say, maybe over the next half-a-dozen games Loovens will show that the defensive assurance he offers is more important and we see us get more points. Until then I think the jury's out as to who best to start

[Jim]

Van Aken’s more progressive in possession than Loovens, I’ll agree with that. Lees though is not as good a performer with Van Aken alongside him or anyone else for that matter. He needs Loovens assurance alongside him for him to perform.

 

Our progress over the last 3 years has been built on the defensive axis that Westwood, Lees and Loovens gives the team and as ponderous as we are, our best chance of promotion is with these three in particular being the backbone of our side IMO.

 

I’m all for free flowing attacking football but you won’t get this under the current head coach or with this squad of players. They’re conditioned to play in a certain way and until Carlos goes this won’t change.

[tarn owl]

Loovens and Lees are the best centre half pairing we’ve had in a long time. Not sure why fans look for an issue with their distribution. They both control the ball well and get it to bannan, Lee or butters. Our issues then start with lack of movement and creativity up front. No issues at the back and we are so lucky to have a solid base. Carlos is lucky too as that trio at keeper and centre back was here before him. Carlos has done little to improve our forward play. Stick to criticisms of the right areas.