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Remember the 4-5-1 against Arsenal??


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8 minutes ago, IstillhateSteveBould said:

I think it's pretty clear Carlos' 442 system won't get us promoted, to everyone but Carlos.

 

Genuinely can't understand why he's stubborn. It hampers so many players.

 

It's so we can get two of our many big name strikers in up front isn't it.

That and the fact that he's very clearly a back four man. 

 

Put the two together and there's little other choice...

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56 minutes ago, Holmowl said:

 

Cant agree.

 

Yes you are fair to discount the Wolves non-game, but that still leaves 8 starts in 15/16 without a goal, and 8 in 16/17 without a goal. I would argue that any striker on our books with 15 starts and 21 as sub, scoring only twice, can't expect a run. There's only so many games Carlos could afford to give him without scoring.

 

However, what I would say is that the team fared fairly well when he starts. In those 15 games we won 7, drew 6 and lost 2. So clearly he "works" as a focal point, and occupies defences. 

When you say focal point, how many times has he played as a striker, I honestly can't remember? He didn't play as one yesterday, neither did he against Utd. 

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1 hour ago, frastheowl said:


Following that performance against Arsenal, he started only nine leagues (of which two of those where when we played our 2nd XI against Boro on Xmas Bank Holiday and Wolves on the last game of the season). 

 

But, to be honest, that first season wasn't the problem. He got game time. Joao was bought, as said by Carlos several times, for the future. When you spent £2.5m on a teenager from abroad with the phenomenal natural talent a player like Joao has...he needs nurturing and managing correctly. 

 

And we simply haven't done it. We've brought in other players (are they any better?!), and he's been demoted to 4th/5th choice striker, or deemed not good enough at all at a point during last season.

 

It's not how you manage young players. They need opportunities. They need a role within a squad. And they need consistency. Given the amount of goals Fletcher and Rhodes have scored for us, and the progress (or lack of) we've made playing them...wouldn't we have been better investing our time and faith in a player who had previously shown some real potential? And our FFP predicament wouldn't be as perilous as a result either. 

 

As a result of this mismanagement, we've now got two strikers who have lost value whilst been at the club (Fletcher and Rhodes), and we've totally derailed a promising youngsters potential. 

 

100% this.

 

We've brought in more established, bigger names than Joao, and they've done no better. We've actually become a poorer team. We're now awful to watch and lack the things Joao brings, every week. 

 

Boring, predictable, easy to defend against plodders up front every week and people wonder why we struggle to create chances and scare teams.

 

Joao has been terribly mismanaged. Carlos has completely nullified his potential. And for those who don't understand the value of good man management, explain Leon Clarke. Many similarities to Joao, yet he's suddenly playing out of his skin week in week out.

 

That's down to Wilder. Clearly a much, much better man-manager than our Carlos. I'd bet my life if Joao had performed as he did in the Derby for Wilder, he'd be starting the next game. I'd be my life he'd be tearing this league apart under Wilder, and if Clarke played for Carlos, he'd be where Lewis Mcgugan is currently.

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

It's so we can get two of our many big name strikers in up front isn't it.

That and the fact that he's very clearly a back four man. 

 

Put the two together and there's little other choice...

 

Which makes me wonder who actually bought all these strikers. 

 

Seriously strange recruitment.

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1 hour ago, Holmowl said:

 

Cant agree.

 

Yes you are fair to discount the Wolves non-game, but that still leaves 8 starts in 15/16 without a goal, and 8 in 16/17 without a goal. I would argue that any striker on our books with 15 starts and 21 as sub, scoring only twice, can't expect a run. There's only so many games Carlos could afford to give him without scoring.

 

However, what I would say is that the team fared fairly well when he starts. In those 15 games we won 7, drew 6 and lost 2. So clearly he "works" as a focal point, and occupies defences. 

 

They aren't 8 consecutive starts. It's just 8 starts over the course of 2/3's of a season. Hardly ideal circumstances. 

 

Jordan Rhodes went 24 league games without scoring for Wednesday, of which nine of those were starts. Fletcher went through a lengthy spell without scoring last season. 

 

But, your final point is pretty important. Surely it's a case of the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. If we play better with Joao in the side, and I believe we do simply because he gives us an unpredictability to our play, then does it matter how many goals he scores, if the team performs better as a result. 

 

As has been said before, the blueprint of the 4-3-3 ceased when Hooper arrived. Hooper's a terrific player, and has been a very good signing. He's our best player imo. But, he doesn't fit into a 4-3-3. He's either part of a front two, or he plays as a No.10, like he is doing at present in a 4-2-3-1. But he's not a lone striker in a 4-3-3. 

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23 minutes ago, IstillhateSteveBould said:

 

Which makes me wonder who actually bought all these strikers. 

 

Seriously strange recruitment.

 

I think they realised we weren't far away and gambled on the final piece.

And it didn't fit. 

So they gambled again.

And it didn't fit. 

And again and again...

And....

That's it now , we've got to work with what we've got. 

We might have to jiggle things about but that's where we are. 

Etc etc 

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4 hours ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

It's still probably our best defensive back five...Two years on.

It's the best our midfield have played as a unit which gets them in the right areas.  

 

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Stick Reach or FF in for Helan and we were probably one player away.

A fast, intelligent striker who could hold it and go the other way...

 

Instewd we've bought Hooper, Fletcher, Rhodes, Winnall. 

All four of whom look better in a front two.

 

So there we are...

 

 

Like it or lump it....its going to be 442..

Joao frustrates me. One day he is unplayable the next couple of games he couldn't trap a bag of cement. 

 

We need to come up with a way to play this formation effectively. And dare I say the reason it worked against arsenal is because they come at us. 

Teams that sit behind the ball the whole game with five in midfield, we don't have shots on target against them let alone score. We just can't break then down. 

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33 minutes ago, frastheowl said:

 

They aren't 8 consecutive starts. It's just 8 starts over the course of 2/3's of a season. Hardly ideal circumstances. 

 

Jordan Rhodes went 24 league games without scoring for Wednesday, of which nine of those were starts. Fletcher went through a lengthy spell without scoring last season. 

 

But, your final point is pretty important. Surely it's a case of the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. If we play better with Joao in the side, and I believe we do simply because he gives us an unpredictability to our play, then does it matter how many goals he scores, if the team performs better as a result. 

 

As has been said before, the blueprint of the 4-3-3 ceased when Hooper arrived. Hooper's a terrific player, and has been a very good signing. He's our best player imo. But, he doesn't fit into a 4-3-3. He's either part of a front two, or he plays as a No.10, like he is doing at present in a 4-2-3-1. But he's not a lone striker in a 4-3-3. 

 

Always felt the same about Hooper tbh, but towards the end of last season and parts of this, when Carlos has thrown caution to the wind and gone with 3 forwards, Hooper's looked excellent as a sort of false 9. The focal central point, but rather than run in behind/in the channels, he drops deeper and the wide forwards make the runs in beyond.

 

I think that could work really well with FF and Joao either side.

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4 minutes ago, IstillhateSteveBould said:

 

Always felt the same about Hooper tbh, but towards the end of last season and parts of this, when Carlos has thrown caution to the wind and gone with 3 forwards, Hooper's looked excellent as a sort of false 9. The focal central point, but rather than run in behind/in the channels, he drops deeper and the wide forwards make the runs in beyond.

 

I think that could work really well with FF and Joao either side.

 

Still think he's looked his best with the big man and FF floating wide. 

But that's a whole other thing....:laugh:

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Surely what everyone is saying about Joao, is exactly the same thing he is doing with Van Aken, dropping him for the aging under performing looven who is getting slower and more injury prone. 

 

Give Van Aken a run in the team and he will improve and at 24 he is a kid in footballing terms but instead Carlos will reck him the same way he has Joao and Wildsmith neither get game time or are allowed on loan when we have cover in both positions.

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Been saying this for months.

 

3-5-2 at home, could switch to a 4-5-1 away. We need to create overloads in midfield. 

 

We've got the quality to have a midfield 3 that would dominate - defensively and then creatively when in possession.

 

We've got athletic wide players in can happily play fullback.

 

We've got Loovens, Lees and Van Aken is a good back 3. We know JVA's defensive frailties but his distribution would make up for it and playings at the side of Lees and Loovens, he'd flourish.

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