SallyCinnamon Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 I thought this was going to be the way Carlos played it. We hammered them that night, one of our best performances under CC. Surprised he's never gone back to this or tried it since. The 2 in midfield is easily outbattled by any side who plays with 3. We haven't got a midfielder with the size or strength to compete. Why is he so stubborn? He believes in a system and philosophy that isn't getting the best out of the side. I really want the bloke to succeed but I've never been so frustrated with a Wednesday manager than I have with Carlos. We are so infuriating. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legendaryswan Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 NONE of us want CC to fail, Best performance under CC by a mile,we were aided by injuries to two of their key men on the night,just like the play off semi v Brighton at our place. Thing is hes rigid in his selection,theres no fluidity,so theres no suprises for the oppos,its same as everytime,granted our oppos will have to sacrifice to match up,but were so slow at the back we are vunerable to a counter at pace. And yet weve a squad that accomodates all permutations,its difficult to fathom CCs thought process Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ka58 Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 I wouldn’t use a game 2 years ago against Arsenal’s kids as a barometer. maybe our last away game against one of the championship favourites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
York_Owl Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 I haven’t got a problem playing 4-4-2 against other teams that line up 4-4-2 like Villa. The problems come when teams play three in the middle like Arsenal (4-2-3-1). Carlos deliberately set us up with three in the middle that night to counter that but doesn’t bother when teams in this division play that sort of formation; Hull and Huddersfield being the notable examples. I have no idea why especially when it suits a lot of players in our squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SallyCinnamon Posted November 19, 2017 Author Share Posted November 19, 2017 8 hours ago, ka58 said: I wouldn’t use a game 2 years ago against Arsenal’s kids as a barometer. maybe our last away game against one of the championship favourites. Against sides who play 4-4-2 man for man like us we match them and are capable of beating them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
areNOTwhatTHEYseem Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 Didn't Carlos write a book extolling the virtues of 4-3-3? It seems odd that he's now wedded to a 4-4-2, particularly at a time when many of our rivals have successfully adopted a formation more akin to the one he wrote a book about! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hunt Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 1 hour ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said: Didn't Carlos write a book extolling the virtues of 4-3-3? It seems odd that he's now wedded to a 4-4-2, particularly at a time when many of our rivals have successfully adopted a formation more akin to the one he wrote a book about! The sequel is 442 , just not the best time to release it 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Snooty Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 It's still probably our best defensive back five...Two years on. It's the best our midfield have played as a unit which gets them in the right areas. Stick Reach or FF in for Helan and we were probably one player away. A fast, intelligent striker who could hold it and go the other way... Instewd we've bought Hooper, Fletcher, Rhodes, Winnall. All four of whom look better in a front two. So there we are... Like it or lump it....its going to be 442.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robswfc Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 13 minutes ago, Lord Snooty said: It's still probably our best defensive back five...Two years on. It's the best our midfield have played as a unit which gets them in the right areas. Stick Reach or FF in for Helan and we were probably one player away. A fast, intelligent striker who could hold it and go the other way... Instewd we've bought Hooper, Fletcher, Rhodes, Winnall. All four of whom look better in a front two. So there we are... Like it or lump it....its going to be 442.. On't radio the other day Carlos said he thought Fletch and Rhodes could play the lone striker role, but that Joao couldn't do this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aren't we? Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 Would love to see CC try this formation/team again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmowl Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 1 hour ago, robswfc said: On't radio the other day Carlos said he thought Fletch and Rhodes could play the lone striker role, but that Joao couldn't do this Fletch can play it, and did so for struggling defensive Prem teams. Is that really where we are or want to be? As for Rhodes - not a chance. Our 442 or similar works fine when done properly and with intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walt Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Lord Snooty said: It's still probably our best defensive back five...Two years on. It's the best our midfield have played as a unit which gets them in the right areas. Stick Reach or FF in for Helan and we were probably one player away. A fast, intelligent striker who could hold it and go the other way... Instewd we've bought Hooper, Fletcher, Rhodes, Winnall. All four of whom look better in a front two. So there we are... Like it or lump it....its going to be 442.. It's annoying as that side is almost there...as it still is now. I'd have said three players would have seen that side promoted. FF as a left forward, someone with similar attributes on the right and a striker In the mould that you mention. All three players could have been bought for the money we've since wasted. I wonder what made CC think that going with two up front was the way to go especially as the formation above naturally gives Carlos numbers in the middle of the pitch (which he is obsessed with), balance with players in their preferred positions and also some genuine width. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
York_Owl Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 24 minutes ago, Holmowl said: Fletch can play it, and did so for struggling defensive Prem teams. Is that really where we are or want to be? As for Rhodes - not a chance. Our 442 or similar works fine when done properly and with intent. It does, especially, when we come up against teams also playing 4-4-2 like Villa the other week. Where we struggle is when our central two come up against a team playing a central three. We just get overrun in midfield. In my opinion this is our biggest problem. I wonder if the stats support this e.g. how we fare against teams playing 4-4-2 compared to teams playing a central three? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frastheowl Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 1 hour ago, robswfc said: On't radio the other day Carlos said he thought Fletch and Rhodes could play the lone striker role, but that Joao couldn't do this The very same Joao, who played the role in the Arsenal game and run Mertersacker and Chambers ragged. Joao had all the hallmarks to become a genuine complete centre forward. He's skilful, quick, direct, tall and has a good first touch. He needed to be nurtured in that role, instead we've mismanaged him so poorly, we've now turned him into a winger who gets 15 minutes when we're desperate. Desperate waste of what was a potentially superb player. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Snooty Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 I don't mind the 442. There are games it will work. Like Villa. It all comes back to having a viable plan. Which we have. But very rarely, if ever, use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmowl Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 11 minutes ago, frastheowl said: The very same Joao, who played the role in the Arsenal game and run Mertersacker and Chambers ragged. Joao had all the hallmarks to become a genuine complete centre forward. He's skilful, quick, direct, tall and has a good first touch. He needed to be nurtured in that role, instead we've mismanaged him so poorly, we've now turned him into a winger who gets 15 minutes when we're desperate. Desperate waste of what was a potentially superb player. Was he mismanaged? After his promising start he just stopped scoring. 28th November 2015 - scored at Blackburn. Since then 16 starts - not one goal. 21 times on as sub - scored twice. Surely mismanagement would have been to give him more than those 16 starts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
room0035 Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 But we don't play 4-4-2 as we have never played 2 wingers I can think of maybe when matias scored the cracker again Leeds but carlos plays a weird 4 at the back 3 central midfielders and one winger then two up front, Wallace spends all his time in central midfielder and Reach shoots on site. The front two get no service then we all moan when we don't score. How about play a 4-4-2 with two wingers who cross the ball into the strikers then let's see what happens. It will never happen though as Carlos would have to drop his favourite goal machine Bannan, how many has he scored so far again? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frastheowl Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Holmowl said: Was he mismanaged? After his promising start he just stopped scoring. 28th November 2015 - scored at Blackburn. Since then 16 starts - not one goal. 21 times on as sub - scored twice. Surely mismanagement would have been to give him more than those 16 starts? Following that performance against Arsenal, he started only nine leagues (of which two of those where when we played our 2nd XI against Boro on Xmas Bank Holiday and Wolves on the last game of the season). But, to be honest, that first season wasn't the problem. He got game time. Joao was bought, as said by Carlos several times, for the future. When you spent £2.5m on a teenager from abroad with the phenomenal natural talent a player like Joao has...he needs nurturing and managing correctly. And we simply haven't done it. We've brought in other players (are they any better?!), and he's been demoted to 4th/5th choice striker, or deemed not good enough at all at a point during last season. It's not how you manage young players. They need opportunities. They need a role within a squad. And they need consistency. Given the amount of goals Fletcher and Rhodes have scored for us, and the progress (or lack of) we've made playing them...wouldn't we have been better investing our time and faith in a player who had previously shown some real potential? And our FFP predicament wouldn't be as perilous as a result either. As a result of this mismanagement, we've now got two strikers who have lost value whilst been at the club (Fletcher and Rhodes), and we've totally derailed a promising youngsters potential. Edited November 19, 2017 by frastheowl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmowl Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, frastheowl said: Following that performance against Arsenal, he started only nine leagues (of which two of those where when we played our 2nd XI against Boro on Xmas Bank Holiday and Wolves on the last game of the season). But, to be honest, that first season wasn't the problem. He got game time. Joao was bought, as said by Carlos several times, for the future. When you spent £2.5m on a teenager from abroad with the phenomenal natural talent a player like Joao...he needs nurturing and managing correctly. And we simply haven't done it. We've brought in other players (are they any better?!), and he's been demoted to 4th/5th choice striker, or deemed not good enough at all at a point during last season. It's not how you manage young players. They need opportunities. They need a role within a squad. And they need consistency. Given the amount of goals Fletcher and Rhodes have scored for us, and the progress (or lack of) we've made playing them...wouldn't we have been better investing our time and faith in a player who had previously shown some real potential? As a result of this mismanagement, we've now got two strikers who have lost value whilst been at the club (Fletcher and Rhodes), and we've totally derailed a promising youngsters potential. Cant agree. Yes you are fair to discount the Wolves non-game, but that still leaves 8 starts in 15/16 without a goal, and 8 in 16/17 without a goal. I would argue that any striker on our books with 15 starts and 21 as sub, scoring only twice, can't expect a run. There's only so many games Carlos could afford to give him without scoring. However, what I would say is that the team fared fairly well when he starts. In those 15 games we won 7, drew 6 and lost 2. So clearly he "works" as a focal point, and occupies defences. Edited November 19, 2017 by Holmowl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Snooty Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) Would an improved Joao have been the answer? I think with improvement he probably would. But that was with improvement. The club had set itself up (supposedly) for the now. We deemed , rightly or wrongly that we didn't have time to nurture. So we got experience. They actually fit the template less than a raw Joao in some ways. It's an irony that without the crazy money we suddenly have and are able to invest in player wages.... the lad might have improved over 2 years of solid playing and that by now might have been exactly what we needed. I'm afraid the huge expectation to get promoted has curbed Joaos progress as much as anything tactical or man management wise. The time line that the Chairman and manager have put in place in its own way has thwarted the chance for the younger player to learn on the job. Our desperation for success, feom the very top in the chairman to the man in the stand has slowed progress. As much of a paradox as that might sound. Patience.... An isolated word in football. .. Edited November 19, 2017 by Lord Snooty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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