Barry Bannan too deep

[McRightSide]

Van Aken should be nowhere near the middle of midfield.

 

His first touch is way below the required standard, he's as ponderous as the one and his passing ability is widely overrated

[Mike Hunt]

Its not the players .

[oldishowl]

I just can't understand how Carlos can possibly think we can be effective with the type of player we have playing 442 against a team with 3 athletic centre midfield players.

 

I criticise Bannan for dropping too deep but to be fair him and Butterfield had an impossible job today. We were outnumbered in there and while ever they pushed on us we were going to struggle.

We didn't get forward until they ran out of steam and sat back last 20. 

 

It is absolute nonsense. 

[Miffed]

Bannan was probably too deep because this is what the manager has told him to do. Mentioned it in another thread but Im seriously starting to question whether Carlos believes and trusts his defence. This must be the reason we dont go for it in large periods of games. This must be why he sets up to nullify visiting teams, rather than playing our own game.

Today it looked as if we were playing with 2 left backs, Reach and Fox. This is OK if one goes forward and the other drops back ala Worthington and King back in the day.... but they werent. I still stand by my previous statements that Reach has the potential to be a brilliant, creative winger for us..... Carlos is stifling the team by taking his attacking threat away from us and ruining him in defence.

 

 

[0114]

He doesn't have the physicality to play central. He's a fantastic player, doesn't score enough goals for his ability. The most consistent Bannan we have seen was season 1 when he played left and drifted in, gets him on the ball in the right area. 

[Otley Owl]

1 hour ago, Owl 44 said:

I was saying this all the way through the match. Where is Bannan? Why is Bannan so far back? The people around me must have been sick of hearing it. Point being when Bannan plays well,  Wednesday play well. When Bannan plays attacking football and gets forward,  we look awesome. When Butterfield went off it was inevitable he was going to drop even deeper. However,  the one time Bannan did get into their box, City **** themselves and couldn't handle him. Why oh why did he go down though? Seemed very annoyed. Was like a toddler throwing a tantrum and thought he would get a booking for arguing. Said at time, why would he react like that if it wasn't a genuine penalty? 

 

Anyway not sure if him playing deep was tactics or City playing him out of game. Lee Johnson has said on many occasions he admires Bannan and rates him as our most dangerous player and would sign him tomorrow if he could. At times in that match I had to look around the pitch for him because I wasn't sure where he was. He seemed to be playing over on the left a lot and Reach at one bit was playing more central and ahead of Hooper. Bizarre. 

 

Absolutely this. Bannan is at his best 10-20 yards from the oppositions penalty area. He's been brilliant this season doing just that. But today he, and to be the fair the entire team, were so deep it was unreal. I'm far from a tactics expert, but it was glaring even to me. Fair enough Bristol were compact and organised, but it was crying out for us to push up. We were so laborious and slow it was unreal at times. I thought Butterfield did alright defensively, so I couldn't understand why he spent so much time in the back 4 or left. The Leeds manager identified him as our playmaker but still couldn't handle him but he was constantly in the final third that game. I can remember him being there on 3 or 4 occasions today. Frustrating. Can only guess Bristol did something tactical beyond my understanding to keep the space so tight. 

[slow83]

It wasn’t just bannan, the whole team played in a space the size of a postage stamp just inside our half for most of the game. Hooper was so desperate for some service he resorted to trying to do it all himself.

[Reallondonowl]

1 hour ago, hugeowl said:

Its not the players .

Correct

[malek]

Our 4 mifielders get pressured by opposition's 5. Ball must go back in order not to lose it under pressure. Our back 4 are not good on the ball, so midfielders drop far too deep to take it off them creating huge gap between our midfield and strikers.

 

Running theme for us this season.

[Guest Copthorneowl]

2 hours ago, One De Bilde said:

Not a Bannan bashing thread as I rate the guy (but I also dont buy into the sometimes over the top adulation), but I think I understand football and I cannot get my head around this. 

 

Why when we have the ball in the middle third does he drop so deep to obtain it? On several occasions he slotted in alongside Lees and Loovens. When he is pretty much our only playmaker (Lee was on the bench) and we have no wingers, there are no options for him anyway and the only thing he can do is play a 5 yard pass to Lees or a "Hollywood" ball - which often doesn't come off.

 

If anyone can enlighten me please do because it frustrates me like flip! 

 

Mate he has no option Loovens simply refuses to either move forward with the ball or play it forward.  Lees today and of late has become similar on two occasions he did see a gap as wide as North Sea and carried the ball forward but neither of them do it hardly ever and they end up playing sideways to each other then back to Westwood for a launch into space.

 

Bannan like several thousand in the ground recognises if he doesn't take the ball from them it will end up two miles over his head.

 

Frankly I would rather see Van Acken make a defensive error and enjoy watching him thread a good long or shirt pass northwards which is what he does with ease.  Stick with Glen and we're finished ...yes. Know he's been great but he's now past it sorry to all those that love him.

[oldishowl]

14 minutes ago, malek said:

Our 4 mifielders get pressured by opposition's 5. Ball must go back in order not to lose it under pressure. Our back 4 are not good on the ball, so midfielders drop far too deep to take it off them creating huge gap between our midfield and strikers.

 

Running theme for us this season.

 

I agree and you only have to look at the formation and type of team we are playing to know how it is going to pan out.

 

So explain to me, what does Carlos see/hope/expect is going to happen. How does he think we will play well and win in this type of scenario.

 

A good example is Leeds. Last year they were powerful and athletic in midfield and beat us easily, this year they were a footballing team who stood off us so a different outcome 

[SiJ]

So he has a penalty claim in the 85th minute or whatever it is. . . 

 

Begs the question: 

 

Why in the flying f*ck did it take until the 85th minute for one of our midfielders to take a gamble and break beyond the strikers? 

 

We were utterly woeful today. Embarrassed by that. 

[malek]

24 minutes ago, oldishowl said:

 

I agree and you only have to look at the formation and type of team we are playing to know how it is going to pan out.

 

So explain to me, what does Carlos see/hope/expect is going to happen. How does he think we will play well and win in this type of scenario.

 

A good example is Leeds. Last year they were powerful and athletic in midfield and beat us easily, this year they were a footballing team who stood off us so a different outcome 

 

I think that our "problems" on the pitch are quite obvious.

 

Carlos seems bit afraid to change his tactics and adapt from what ONCE worked.

[the mighty wednesday]

4 hours ago, oldishowl said:

 

It was flip all to do with negative tactics. Bannan started high up the pitch, or didn't you notice that, but the opposition pushed on him and he drops deeper and deeper because he can't stand the heat.

 

When he plays the position he started today his job is to drive us forward not retreat like an Italian tank.

Said this loads of times that the manager should let it be known that when we have the ball Bannan does not drop deep to receive it. He should be more scared of losing his place for dropping too deep than he is of facing the opposition. Our attack was much better when van Aken or Pudil brought the ball out of defence and Bannan started further up the pitch. Tom Lees had even started to bring the ball forward but we always seem to revert to type. It could be a chicken and egg situation but it always happens when we start slowly and don't show any urgency for much of the game. The players need a manager that can get this across to them as it appears Carlos can't get this to stick with them. It appears that he is content to kid himself that sideways passing is "controlling" the game in a clever way.

 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, the mighty wednesday said:

Said this loads of times that the manager should let it be known that when we have the ball Bannan does not drop deep to receive it. He should be more scared of losing his place for dropping too deep than he is of facing the opposition. Our attack was much better when van Aken or Pudil brought the ball out of defence and Bannan started further up the pitch. Tom Lees had even started to bring the ball forward but we always seem to revert to type. It could be a chicken and egg situation but it always happens when we start slowly and don't show any urgency for much of the game. The players need a manager that can get this across to them as it appears Carlos can't get this to stick with them. It appears that he is content to kid himself that sideways passing is "controlling" the game in a clever way.

 

CC is the coach and not the manager. There lies the problem. It is he who coaches these negative tactics. Both Bannan and Hooper were totally brassed off yesterday having to do the work of two players each because of CC's sodding tactics.  

[akbuk]

Bristols game plan was to smother the midfield which is what they did with a minimum of 5 in there and sometimes 6

[saf]

Lees and Loovens are good defenders but cannot carry the ball out the back as is required by the modern centre back. Players like Sasso (and I presume van aken) are much better on the ball and can bring the ball out of the back rather than hoof. 

 

When the centre backs don't carry the ball over half way our central midfield has to do this which means they drop deep, and leave themselves outnumbered in the middle of the park. 

 

To me, we either need to risk a dodgier defence and stick with 4 4 2 or play 3 in the middle with one man in sort of 4141 or 4132 set-up. 

 

Carlos didn't want to lose yesterday and hence the turgid dull affair that resulted. Question is would people take a defeat whilst going for it insread of yesterday's result?

[cowl]

13 minutes ago, saf said:

Lees and Loovens are good defenders but cannot carry the ball out the back as is required by the modern centre back. Players like Sasso (and I presume van aken) are much better on the ball and can bring the ball out of the back rather than hoof. 

 

When the centre backs don't carry the ball over half way our central midfield has to do this which means they drop deep, and leave themselves outnumbered in the middle of the park. 

 

To me, we either need to risk a dodgier defence and stick with 4 4 2 or play 3 in the middle with one man in sort of 4141 or 4132 set-up. 

 

Carlos didn't want to lose yesterday and hence the turgid dull affair that resulted. Question is would people take a defeat whilst going for it insread of yesterday's result?

 

On one game alone, no, but in general I'd be much happier for this to be our approach. I actually think we'd lose fewer games than what we do currently, and more importantly we'd also win more too.

[Bramhall Owl]

16 hours ago, the mighty wednesday said:

Tom Lees had even started to bring the ball forward

And when he did, Lee dropped in to cover him so we are actually in a weaker position going forward as even fewer midfielders up the pitch.

It was bizarre yesterday, not only did Bannan play too deep but so did Butterfield. There were so many times when both BB and JB were level with Lees and Loovens completely nullifying any threat posed by the full backs being up the pitch as we didn't have the numbers going forward/in the box. So often the front 2 were isolated, Rhodes even more when Hooper dropped off looking for space. Yesterday was so dull and uninteresting

[the mighty wednesday]

7 hours ago, Bramhall Owl said:

And when he did, Lee dropped in to cover him so we are actually in a weaker position going forward as even fewer midfielders up the pitch.

It was bizarre yesterday, not only did Bannan play too deep but so did Butterfield. There were so many times when both BB and JB were level with Lees and Loovens completely nullifying any threat posed by the full backs being up the pitch as we didn't have the numbers going forward/in the box. So often the front 2 were isolated, Rhodes even more when Hooper dropped off looking for space. Yesterday was so dull and uninteresting

I was really talking about Tom Lees in previous games following van Aken and Pudil's example by bringing the ball out more in order to start attacks further up the pitch and prevent Bannan from dropping too deep. I take your point that yesterday Lee etc were dropping too far back when there was any movement from the centre backs. It was almost a carbon copy of the Birmingham game. Butterfield and Bannan were usually level with each other in the centre circle in our half and again it was only in the last few minutes that Bannan tried to play in the final third.

I foolishly thought we were getting this out of our system and it should be simple to prevent. There are four people involved in this directly, the centre backs and the two central midfielders. Any one of the four (or more) should be able to see what is happening and tell Bannan etc. not to drop deep to pick up the ball and to encourage Lees and Loovens to release the ball quicker or bring it forward.