Fessi and Hutch

[0114]

If we play the diamond then Hutch is a shoe in over Jones at DM and Forestieri would be best suited to playing at the top of the diamond.

[Holmowl]

1 minute ago, Copthorneowl said:

 

In my heart of hearts Sam is much better than Jones and stats don’t really mean anything concrete when you’re talking about a team of 11 the results you quote holmowl might have been better with or without Joe Bloggs it’s a argument based on facts that don’t exist cos we’ll never know.

 

i do know Hutch is better on the ball, a better distributor confident enough to join colleagues north of the half way line etc. etc., but he has some negatives like his recklessness . Do you think Jones would have pressed forward to close a Norwich midfielder 30 yards away from him and in Norwich’s half to block a pass which rebounded to Wallace and then from 40 yards was back of the net. Not in a million...

 

Its as I said earlier out of site out of mind for a few games. Typical Wednesdayites 20 minute memory. He’s genuine Prem class with Sunday league fitness issues.

 

Jones would still be running now if he was closing the Norwich full-back down.

 

But I will still agree to disagree with you over which of the two is the better CM, which of the two makes us the better team, and which of the two is proven PL class.

 

You also have to add into the mix that Carlos can rely on Jones to play 95% of matches. This allows stability and understanding. With Hutch, sadly, we know this not to be the case.

[York_Owl]

Up until the end of last season we hadn't won a single game without one of Hutchinson or FF in the team.  they are the best players in our squad along with Hooper and Lee.

 

If and when they are fully fit both should be in the team ideally in a 4-3-3

 

Something like:

 

Westwood

 

Hunt

Lees

Loovens

Reach

 

Lee

Hutch

Bannan

 

Wallace

Hooper

FF

[Holmowl]

9 minutes ago, 1993swfc said:

If we play the diamond then Hutch is a shoe in over Jones at DM and Forestieri would be best suited to playing at the top of the diamond.

 

Who would drop out for FF?

[optimisticowl]

The current reality is that money doesn't dictate selection anymore, we appear to have a perpetual £10million sub, along with a £2milion Portugese international, so Fessi and Hutch will fit in well as back up, very similar to Premier League teams, other than for one slight difference. 

 

[Guest Copthorneowl]

1 hour ago, torryowl said:

god I love you and your stats .......everyone can have an opinion but stats like that and the jones one can blow those opinons out the water .

 

But they don't blow opinions out of the water the fact is we will never ever know what would have happened with other permutations  because they often didn't take place.

 

Stats are a great indicator when comparing one scenario with another if it's taken place I agree but they certainly cannot necessarily be used to debate the different abilies of player I.e. Sam and Jones they are so different but I'm sure few would say Jones out scores Huch when comparing key things like distribution, tackling, supporting the offensive attacks, winning ariel battles, and other things and yes I appreciate Jones has many qualities (game reading, not getting drawn out of position, providing cover etc. etc., that may our score Hutch.

 

An example could be Hooper and  Nando. I wouldn't swap Nando up front with GH but yesterday I can say with confidence FF would have anticipated the first goal Hooper scored and scored himself, he would not have been able to score the header but...he would have put away the chance Hooper blasted at the keeper which he saved by slotting it to his left all day long.

 

Its daft imo to keep trotting out stats to prove a 'mute' point I could say based on stas FF is our best striker which the stats proves (probably prior to the last burst from Hooper) but GH is definitely the man to lead the line and while he plays like he did yesterday Fletch is his sidekick......for now.

 

[Guest Copthorneowl]

1 hour ago, Buxtongent said:

To alter Sunday's side IN ANY WAY would, IMO, be sacreligious. 11 players (no, 12 if palmer is included as sub) played football as good as any I have seen this last 3 months, and what with Holidays, that includes Champions League football! To even consider them as anything other than a team is outrageous

Hutchinson invariably puts in a shift but, and it is a big but, is a yellow card waiting to happen.

Loovens looks, on his later performances,to have lost he essential yard of pace

FF is, well, FF. He's like the little girl with the little curl - when he's good, he's good, but when he's bad.....

It would not be a bad bench alongside Westie, Rhodes and Butterfield, but to not keep faith with yesterday's line-up would be silly..      

 

Would you have made this post after the Brum game and following the derby game?

[0114]

1 hour ago, Holmowl said:

 

Who would drop out for FF?

Wallace. 

 

Hutchinson

Lee Bannan

Forestieri 

[DobbinTheDonkey]

The stats say we beat Brentford. Those that went will have seen them take our midfield apart time and time again for the majority of the match. Pigs did the same. QPR and Sunderland both did well for the first halves.

The stats also say we haven't conceded a goal while Sam has been on the pitch. All 80 minutes 

 

[shezzas left peg]

Thinking Loovens would be good to bring straight back in when fit for two reasons. 

1) tom lees has been a bit off and maybe could do with a break for a game or two. 

2) I think Loovens leadership and organisation, talking to players may help VanAkren settle down and find his feet more in this league, don't think he's too done too much wrong just maybe benefit from. Loovens experience along is him for a bit. 

[shezzas left peg]

First season Carlos rotated quite a bit and I think it can be very effective when done right, drop 2 for a rest but keep the other 9 the same. 

Hutch adds less going forward, but more physical and better defencivly. 

Nando if persuaded to play left again once fit (if were at home and decide on up tempo attacking) scares the hell out of defenders, but not effective and doesn't like the defensive duties away when we're forced to defend.. So maybe a little rotation can be beneficial to resting the midfield and changing things up for different opposition and depending if Carlos goes defencive or attacking high tempo. 

 

[owls about that]

4 hours ago, owlandished said:

We got six out right now. Abdi, Boyd, Hutch, Loovens, FF and Westwood

 

After yesterday's game I think all of those would struggle to get in the starting XI if fit

 

4 hours ago, Dronfield_SWFC said:

Wallace does not seem to play every game or normally gets subbed. Fessi would be a great sub to bring on on the wing

 

4 hours ago, Dronfield_SWFC said:

Wallace does not seem to play every game or normally gets subbed. Fessi would be a great sub to bring on on the wing

Just shows how good a squad we have got.

[ramone]

3 hours ago, Holmowl said:

 

Impossible for us to know for many reasons, but do we think Hutch would have replaced Jones in the promotion-winning Burnley twice, Derby and Wolves?

 

His record for the tough-side builder Dyche is so impressive:-

 

15/16 played 41/46 winning the Championship with matches to spare

14/15 played 36/38 in the Prem

13/14 played 46/46* gaining promotion 8 points clear

 

*here's a staggering one....he was subbed just four times in that promotion side. Dyche sat him on the bench for 55 minutes in an entire season!!!!

 

Really, in our heart of hearts, do we honestly think Sam is a better CM than Jones? Do we think Dyche would or should have played Sam ahead of Jones had he been on Burnley's books?

 

When Jones played against us I can't even remember him being on the field. I remember Barton, Vokes, Gray...but not Jones (ok scored a free-kick). 

 

I can see why we under-rate Jones, and we do. And I can see why we rate Hutch, but we over-rate him.

Excellent post.

 

People will give you the 'you can flower up stats to make them suit any argument'. Nut you simply cant argue with them. Nor can you argue with the Hooper/Fletcher stats nor the 1 defeat in last 12 when Jones has started.

 

 

[ramone]

2 hours ago, 1993swfc said:

If we play the diamond then Hutch is a shoe in over Jones at DM and Forestieri would be best suited to playing at the top of the diamond.

Not so sure I agree with your FF comment. He gets crowded out when he plays centrally. His best position is coming from the left but he wont play there because the defensive side of the game tires him out apparently. He's ineffective playing in the middle

[ramone]

2 hours ago, York_Owl said:

Up until the end of last season we hadn't won a single game without one of Hutchinson or FF in the team.  they are the best players in our squad along with Hooper and Lee.

 

If and when they are fully fit both should be in the team ideally in a 4-3-3

 

Something like:

 

Westwood

 

Hunt

Lees

Loovens

Reach

 

Lee

Hutch

Bannan

 

Wallace

Hooper

FF

Hooper doesn't suit the lone striker role. He's a link player and is at his best with a partner off him

[kristmace]

2 minutes ago, ramone said:

Not so sure I agree with your FF comment. He gets crowded out when he plays centrally. His best position is coming from the left but he wont play there because the defensive side of the game tires him out apparently. He's ineffective playing in the middle

 

And for those reasons, reluctantly, I think we should cash in. 

[ramone]

1 minute ago, A12owl said:

Van Arken is 23 years old same age as John Stones. 

We can't have another Joao situation who has been a Peter Pan for the last 2 or is it 3 years. When does a player reach maturity? There are 17,18 year olds playing in the Premiership. 

Imagine being a double glazing salesman. You smash it out the water in England and you get an opportunity to sell double glazing in a different country. You accept the job taking you abroad at such a young age. If you;re not doing the same volume of sales immediately do you kick yourself for it or do you admit to yourself that you might need a few weeks to settle in... 

 

[ramone]

1 minute ago, kristmace said:

 

And for those reasons, reluctantly, I think we should cash in. 

As do I mate but thats another story for another time. 

[The only way is S6]

2 minutes ago, A12owl said:

Van Arken is 23 years old same age as John Stones. 

We can't have another Joao situation who has been a Peter Pan for the last 2 or is it 3 years. When does a player reach maturity? There are 17,18 year olds playing in the Premiership. 

 

I don't think he's had experience like our division is what I meant. Whereas Stones had with Barnsley from a younger age. Can't see the Dutch league being as intense, especially as the pigs game. He must have felt poo after that.

[York_Owl]

10 minutes ago, ramone said:

Hooper doesn't suit the lone striker role. He's a link player and is at his best with a partner off him

Tend to agree with that.  We'd have to see whether it would work or not but a 4-3-3 type of formation suits more of our players than a 4-4-2. 

 

We often struggle when our two man central midfield comes up against a strong three, painfully highlighted by the pigs the other week.