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Guest Copthorneowl
5 hours ago, zzmdu said:

 

No point trying to sensibly discuss, when groups of posters have tunnel vision, with regard to an opinion or player. We saw it last season with Nuhiu, whose now playing the role many of us suggested.

 

The truth is since Hoopers exit we've:

 

:Climbed  the table

:Gained more points per game

:Scored more goals per game

:Beat the league leaders away, with the performance of the season

 

Obviously down to many factors, but to say we've missed Hooper is a nonsense.

 

I'm glad he's back, if we need to score to nick a win or draw, I'd rather have Hooper introduced, rather than Joao & certainly Nuhiu (who both don't look like scoring). But to say we've missed him and should reorganise the team to fit him back is a nonsense.

 

 

 

 

 

There is no tunnel vision as far as I'm concerned with Joao we'll agree to disagree. But please don't tell me in the 5 out of 6 we've won Joao has been instrumental in our success. Apart from a debateable penalty which he was not going to score from he's actually contributed very little imo and not scored any goals. He repeatedly fails to hold the ball up or link play as well as Hooper.

 

You could use your argument to say we havnt missed FF but we have irrespective of results.

 

All your stuff about climbed the table, gained more pints etc., are not down simply to Joao and in my view we would have done that with Hooper who was playing very very well prior to his injury.

 

A lot of people apart from me were suggesting we were missing Hooper during this period and in saying we havnt your assuming we wouldn't have done even better . Well I think we could have but it really doesn't matter that much.

 

I thought like many after his display against Arsenal he would be an outstanding player but he has definitely not kicked on and our manager did say his attitude had been wrong.  Anybody can see with his body language and reluctance to track back and put the hard yards in he's missing something but you think he's.

 

Lastly we don't need to reorganise the team as you say and I don't for one second think Carlos will pick Joao ahead of either strikers. Carlos will in my opinion choose between Hooper and Fletcher to play with Nando and when resting (if ever does) Nando will play Fletcher and Hooper together and Joao will come on as sub.

 

I am am prepared to bet Joao will be a choice only after FF and Hooper, but we'll see.

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8 minutes ago, Copthorneowl said:

There is no tunnel vision as far as I'm concerned with Joao we'll agree to disagree. But please don't tell me in the 5 out of 6 we've won Joao has been instrumental in our success. Apart from a debateable penalty which he was not going to score from he's actually contributed very little imo and not scored any goals. He repeatedly fails to hold the ball up or link play as well as Hooper.

 

You could use your argument to say we havnt missed FF but we have irrespective of results.

 

All your stuff about climbed the table, gained more pints etc., are not down simply to Joao and in my view we would have done that with Hooper who was playing very very well prior to his injury.

 

A lot of people apart from me were suggesting we were missing Hooper during this period and in saying we havnt your assuming we wouldn't have done even better . Well I think we could have but it really doesn't matter that much.

 

I thought like many after his display against Arsenal he would be an outstanding player but he has definitely not kicked on and our manager did say his attitude had been wrong.  Anybody can see with his body language and reluctance to track back and put the hard yards in he's missing something but you think he's.

 

Lastly we don't need to reorganise the team as you say and I don't for one second think Carlos will pick Joao ahead of either strikers. Carlos will in my opinion choose between Hooper and Fletcher to play with Nando and when resting (if ever does) Nando will play Fletcher and Hooper together and Joao will come on as sub.

 

I am am prepared to bet Joao will be a choice only after FF and Hooper, but we'll see.

 

There are two posters in this thread who will use any argument to rubbish Hooper. 

 

Its bizarre given some of the dross who we have watched down the decades that now we have real quality some fans still take pleasure in rubbishing their particular whipping boy. 

 

As you know, I personally hope you are wrong. I strongly believe it should be Hooper and Fletch up top with FF from the left for home matches and most aways. Failing that, I would prefer FF with Fletch. I fear a barren run if he puts FF with Hooper for a long run as he did last year. That said, it has looked a more promising pairing that last year, but I cant put out of my mind the fact that they only scored four goals in 15 matches last year. That is a criminal waste of two superb goal-scoring talents.

 

But certainly, if all 3 are fit, I see only the occasional cameo and cup for Joao.

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I'm curious to see how Hooper performs when he returns.

Historically, it's taken him 4-6 weeks from returning from injury to getting match fit and being an effective player that scores goals... this was evident when he joined last season, when he got injured and returned from that knock last season, and at the beginning of this season where it took him until mid-September to get a goal that wasn't a penalty and until the start of October before he was on 3 goals for the campaign. He seems to have a chronic problem with getting match fit and at his best once he's out. Will people's patiences hold  during a busy January of 5 league games, if it once again takes him a whole month to find his feet? 

 

I hope he hits the ground running and breaks the slow burn it takes for him to get up to his best, because otherwise he'll start getting the same grief he got when he first joined us. 

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A lot will depend on opposition and tactics but if the choice is between Joao and Hooper 

there is an argument that for an away game when we play counter attacking style Joao is more effective than Hooper. He can stretch the defence from the start and when he is tired bring Hooper on as Carlos decides to go for it , last 30 mins, when more chances appear 

 

At home where teams sit back, no space behind the defence, we need to play more attacking then start Hooper and get players around the penalty box and create chances for him.

 

The Joao miss at Reading is an example. 

Would Hooper have stuck  that one away. Probably.

Would Hooper have run from the half way line to create the chance. Doubtful.

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39 minutes ago, oldishowl said:

A lot will depend on opposition and tactics but if the choice is between Joao and Hooper 

there is an argument that for an away game when we play counter attacking style Joao is more effective than Hooper. He can stretch the defence from the start and when he is tired bring Hooper on as Carlos decides to go for it , last 30 mins, when more chances appear 

 

At home where teams sit back, no space behind the defence, we need to play more attacking then start Hooper and get players around the penalty box and create chances for him.

 

The Joao miss at Reading is an example. 

Would Hooper have stuck  that one away. Probably.

Would Hooper have run from the half way line to create the chance. Doubtful.

 

Despite his 75 yard run at Birmingham this season to score?

 

Or his run from halfway at home to Cardiff last season, to cross for the own goal?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Holmowl said:

 

Despite his 75 yard run at Birmingham this season to score?

 

Or his run from halfway at home to Cardiff last season, to cross for the own goal?

 

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting he can't run (when match fit), calm down! Just that Hooper would have been caught by the defenders and/or never made that run in the first place... I'm not sure I've ever seen him try and break the offside trap near the halfway line like that and I don't think I've ever seen him run past a player with the ball before. He has a different type of movement to Joao... are you that hypersensitive about Hooper that you can't accept that maybe he would have dropped and looked to receive ball to feet (as he often does) rather than look to break the offside trap? It's not even a criticism, it's an observation of playing style! 

 

As for his "75 yard run at Birmingham"... He started about 6 yards inside the Wednesday half and ended up about 10 yards from goal when he shot. St Andrews' pitch is 115 yards long, so about 58 yards per half. So by my reckoning that "75 yard run" was 54 yards ish. That "run" took him 9 seconds to complete (unmarked, unpressured and without the ball) before his first touch in the box , which gives a running speed of about 12.5mph

To put that into perspective with Joao's miss at Reading, he covered 30 yards in 4 seconds before cutting inside (marked, challenged, and more than half of that with the ball), which gives a running speed of 15mph.

c. 12mph unchallenged compared with c.15mph challenged.

 

 

Why have I done the above? Not to belittle Hooper, believe it or not. Halfway through a match, all the above is a perfectly acceptable speed and amount of effort to expend and should not be belittled in any way. However, it's very clearly also not something that should be held up on some pedestal as if it's special or worthy of highlighting. It's bog standard attacking football.

I'm trying to make a point, you keep raising up Hooper as being this almighty player. He's a good player and a great goalscorer, but he just can't do everything you seem to think he can do. He doesn't make the type of runs Joao made at Reading, and he doesn't have the pace, he would have been caught by the defender. I have to agree with the person that you quoted... 100% Hooper would have scored it, but if he had tried to do what Joao had done, exactly as Joao had done, he would have been tackled 25 yards from goal. 

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2 hours ago, Copthorneowl said:

There is no tunnel vision as far as I'm concerned with Joao we'll agree to disagree. But please don't tell me in the 5 out of 6 we've won Joao has been instrumental in our success. Apart from a debateable penalty which he was not going to score from he's actually contributed very little imo and not scored any goals. He repeatedly fails to hold the ball up or link play as well as Hooper.

 

You could use your argument to say we havnt missed FF but we have irrespective of results.

 

All your stuff about climbed the table, gained more pints etc., are not down simply to Joao and in my view we would have done that with Hooper who was playing very very well prior to his injury.

 

A lot of people apart from me were suggesting we were missing Hooper during this period and in saying we havnt your assuming we wouldn't have done even better . Well I think we could have but it really doesn't matter that much.

 

I thought like many after his display against Arsenal he would be an outstanding player but he has definitely not kicked on and our manager did say his attitude had been wrong.  Anybody can see with his body language and reluctance to track back and put the hard yards in he's missing something but you think he's.

 

Lastly we don't need to reorganise the team as you say and I don't for one second think Carlos will pick Joao ahead of either strikers. Carlos will in my opinion choose between Hooper and Fletcher to play with Nando and when resting (if ever does) Nando will play Fletcher and Hooper together and Joao will come on as sub.

 

I am am prepared to bet Joao will be a choice only after FF and Hooper, but we'll see.

Joan plays like he's got his boots tied together when he's in front of goal

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Guest Copthorneowl
1 hour ago, Holmowl said:

 

There are two posters in this thread who will use any argument to rubbish Hooper. 

 

Its bizarre given some of the dross who we have watched down the decades that now we have real quality some fans still take pleasure in rubbishing their particular whipping boy. 

 

As you know, I personally hope you are wrong. I strongly believe it should be Hooper and Fletch up top with FF from the left for home matches and most aways. Failing that, I would prefer FF with Fletch. I fear a barren run if he puts FF with Hooper for a long run as he did last year. That said, it has looked a more promising pairing that last year, but I cant put out of my mind the fact that they only scored four goals in 15 matches last year. That is a criminal waste of two superb goal-scoring talents.

 

But certainly, if all 3 are fit, I see only the occasional cameo and cup for Joao.

 

Fair call I can only say I'm not sure CC wants to play all three at once home or away, apart from that we seem to be on exactly the same page. Probably a nice dilemma to have three top players and very good back ups.

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a new striker is clearly needed to replace joao should have been done in summer ,but lets forget Rhodes he aint worth 60k a week wages and that would cause more problems with fessi he is on around 18k a wk ,need a bit more imagination regarding a striker someone like tammy Abraham of Bristol city everything what joao aint surely there is someone like him at one of the big premier league clubs rather than chucking a bomb on Rhodes its not worth it.

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4 hours ago, owlandished said:

 

Agree we have certainly come up after a long period down in terms of quality-of-squad - but who are the four out of Fletcher, Hooper, Joao, Forestieri and Nuhiu you are referring to?

I'd think big Dave is fifth choice starter but first choice closer! 

 

Just looking at villa, they have abonglahor as fifth choice if you count Ayew, kodi ha, McCormack and gustede... I think that's probably the best strikers in terms of strength and depth in the league. Not sure who Newcastles forth and fifth would be. 

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On 27/12/2016 at 00:06, Lionel Fessi said:

Weekly Lucas Joao game analysis thread continues...

 

He did ok again today, exactly what CC asked of him.

Would have liked to have seen him find the lines and run into the space again, Newcastle were pressed up so high were 2 or 3 good chances we had to break where he could have made a run into yards of space, but came short instead...He has the pace and power just doesn't know what to do with it!

 

He didn't do what CC was asking because CC gave him a good talking to after he came on.

 

I think the game was perfect for joao at that stage, unfortunately he was unable to get a chance to run at them. 

 

However. his unwillingness to track and get stuck in near the end could've cost us. I noticed this more watching the sky coverage after being at the game. Plus he seems to have a problem kicking a ball at present, he sliced a basic clearance that badly it fell to an attacker nearly 90 degrees to his left.. I hope he can get it together soon.

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On ‎26‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 23:25, Manila_Owl said:

Get rid. He's not good enough.

 

Three wins and three garbage performances. He's had a 'run' of three games and shown nothing. Absolutely nothing. If he can't score in this team then what chance has he got.

 

You should not stand still even when winning, we need to start by replacing him. 

I like Jaoa, he has actually reminded me of Bergkamp a few times which I know sounds crazy! Unfortunately I am starting to think along the same lines as you though, personally i'd give him the season with a few more games and if he isn't considerably better than surely its time he was moved on and replaced. 

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4 hours ago, StudentOwl said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting he can't run (when match fit), calm down! Just that Hooper would have been caught by the defenders and/or never made that run in the first place... I'm not sure I've ever seen him try and break the offside trap near the halfway line like that and I don't think I've ever seen him run past a player with the ball before. He has a different type of movement to Joao... are you that hypersensitive about Hooper that you can't accept that maybe he would have dropped and looked to receive ball to feet (as he often does) rather than look to break the offside trap? It's not even a criticism, it's an observation of playing style! 

 

As for his "75 yard run at Birmingham"... He started about 6 yards inside the Wednesday half and ended up about 10 yards from goal when he shot. St Andrews' pitch is 115 yards long, so about 58 yards per half. So by my reckoning that "75 yard run" was 54 yards ish. That "run" took him 9 seconds to complete (unmarked, unpressured and without the ball) before his first touch in the box , which gives a running speed of about 12.5mph

To put that into perspective with Joao's miss at Reading, he covered 30 yards in 4 seconds before cutting inside (marked, challenged, and more than half of that with the ball), which gives a running speed of 15mph.

c. 12mph unchallenged compared with c.15mph challenged.

 

 

Why have I done the above? Not to belittle Hooper, believe it or not. Halfway through a match, all the above is a perfectly acceptable speed and amount of effort to expend and should not be belittled in any way. However, it's very clearly also not something that should be held up on some pedestal as if it's special or worthy of highlighting. It's bog standard attacking football.

I'm trying to make a point, you keep raising up Hooper as being this almighty player. He's a good player and a great goalscorer, but he just can't do everything you seem to think he can do. He doesn't make the type of runs Joao made at Reading, and he doesn't have the pace, he would have been caught by the defender. I have to agree with the person that you quoted... 100% Hooper would have scored it, but if he had tried to do what Joao had done, exactly as Joao had done, he would have been tackled 25 yards from goal. 

Wow. 

 

I know I am bottom but I don't carry a stopwatch.

 

Not for one minute do I think Hooper is some almighty player, but he scores lots of goals, in a team which is otherwise quite goal-shy. Very few teams go up if they don't score goals. 

 

I used an anagram ram of Alan and it came out bottom. Love it!

Edited by Holmowl
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And we really are quite goal shy

 

Player/League goals scored for Wednesday

 

 

Fernando Forestieri 21
Adthe Nuhiu 19
Gary Hooper 18
Kieran Lee 16
Lucas Joao 6
Steven Fletcher 6
Tom Lees 3
Sam Hutchinson 3
Barry Bannan 3
Marco Matias 3
Ross Wallace 3
Daniel Pudil 2
Modou Sougou 2
Jose Semedo 1
Liam Palmer 1
Glenn Loovens 1
  108
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Another perspective...

 

Player/Average number of League appearances per goal (rounded)

 

 

Gary Hooper 3
Fernando Forestieri 3
Steven Fletcher 4
Modou Sougou 5
Marco Matias 6
Adthe Nuhiu 7
Lucas Joao 8
Kieran Lee 9
Barry Bannan 19
Ross Wallace 20
Sam Hutchinson 25
Daniel Pudil 26
Tom Lees 33
Glenn Loovens 91
Liam Palmer 126
Jose Semedo 135
Edited by owlandished
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3 hours ago, owlandished said:

Another perspective...

 

Player/Average number of League appearances per goal (rounded)

 

 

Gary Hooper 3
Fernando Forestieri 3
Steven Fletcher 4
Modou Sougou 5
Marco Matias 6
Adthe Nuhiu 7
Lucas Joao 8
Kieran Lee 9
Barry Bannan 19
Ross Wallace 20
Sam Hutchinson 25
Daniel Pudil 26
Tom Lees 33
Glenn Loovens 91
Liam Palmer 126
Jose Semedo 135

Crazy to think of the criticism MM and Sougou get when their goals to games / minutes ratio are so good. I guess we'll never get the chance to see if played over a decent chunk of time could this be replicated. 

 

I still think hunk moving into second half of season goals will come more freely with or without any more additions. Our forwards are quality players and will score more I'm sure of it. 

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5 hours ago, owlandished said:

And we really are quite goal shy

 

Player/League goals scored for Wednesday

 

 

Fernando Forestieri 21
Adthe Nuhiu 19
Gary Hooper 18
Kieran Lee 16
Lucas Joao 6
Steven Fletcher 6
Tom Lees 3
Sam Hutchinson 3
Barry Bannan 3
Marco Matias 3
Ross Wallace 3
Daniel Pudil 2
Modou Sougou 2
Jose Semedo 1
Liam Palmer 1
Glenn Loovens 1
  108

 

I think it is a fair description. I think it our obvious weakness. I am interested to hear your view, as someone who clearly has a keen interest of stats.

 

We are on target to score 54 goals. Compare this to the past 3 seasons of promoted teams

 

Bournemouth 98

Watford 91

Norwich 88

Leicester 83

Burnley 72

Burnley 72 

Hull 69

Boro 63

QPR 60

 

Lowest total to get into Play Offs was Brighton in 13/14 with 55.

 

So yes, I would say that for a club wanting an automatic slot we are VERY goal-shy, and even for a team content to finish 6th, goals for is the obvious area we could come up short.

 

PS _ Burnley twice is not a typo. They scored 72 in both promotion seasons.

Edited by Holmowl
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1 hour ago, Philb125 said:

Crazy to think of the criticism MM and Sougou get when their goals to games / minutes ratio are so good. I guess we'll never get the chance to see if played over a decent chunk of time could this be replicated. 

 

I still think hunk moving into second half of season goals will come more freely with or without any more additions. Our forwards are quality players and will score more I'm sure of it. 

 

I hope you are right, but I do not share your confidence. 

 

This year's 27 in 23 is not a blip. In the last 15 league matches last season we scored 17 (and 9 of them came in 3 matches).

 

That's 44 goals in our last 38 league games. 

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