Geörge Whitebread Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Sorry to have confused you Ian, but by decent level I just meant the step up to from League One to the Championship. It's a non-contact sport at the level that you're talking about. So if Talbot was as good as Messi, as you're bizarrely using as a direct comparison, I suspect he'd get the protection he'd need to be successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozzy85 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Not physically strong enough to play up front at a decent level. I suspect that Lavery will have the same issue (although I hope not) - hence being played on the wing at times. The same applies to Stevie May from what I've seen so far - hence being played on the wing a couple of times and otherwise dropping deep to avoid being in central defenders' pockets. You don't have to be strong to be a forward though. You need something else in the bag like pace (Owen) or positioning (Lineker). What both of these need more then anything is great service and these players had it. I don't think our forwards do at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee A Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I suspect that Lavery will have the same issue (although I hope not) - hence being played on the wing at times. The same applies to Stevie May from what I've seen so far - hence being played on the wing a couple of times and otherwise dropping deep to avoid being in central defenders' pockets. Take the point, but I think playing those 2 on the wing is more about the fact we flat out refuse to sign any wingers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SallyCinnamon Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I think Lavery has more to his game than Talbot did. All I remember about Talbot is that he was very quick and towards the end of that promotion season he was a bit of an unknown to opposition defences. I think when we got promoted to the Championship it was pretty clear he wasn't strong enough to play upfront and injuries took their toll- fair play to him for forging a career out as a right back though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geörge Whitebread Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Take the point, but I think playing those 2 on the wing is more about the fact we flat out refuse to sign any wingers Well, yes, there is that. Although you could argue in that case that they'd just have played fewer games if we had suitable alternatives out wide. I'd include Maguire in this, btw. I'm not sure where/if he fits in after we sign two or three proper flair players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chow Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Didn't he change from a striker to a defender as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geörge Whitebread Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 You don't have to be strong to be a forward though. You need something else in the bag like pace (Owen) or positioning (Lineker). What both of these need more then anything is great service and these players had it. I don't think our forwards do at the moment. At this level you do need some physical presence. Not neccessarily be a massive beast of a player, just able to cope. McCormack or Rhodes are good examples of that. As I said in my response to Ian, small skillful players tend to be more protected at a higher level. Plus, and most importantly, the team around them is full of "proper footballers" that can pass quickly, accurately and creatively. They tend to be too expensive to have enough of them at this level. It doesn't work so well if you just have 1 (McGugan) or any weak links (Semedo) or if the team chops n changes every week. At a lower level there are defensive mistakes and generally less pace throughout for nippy players to take advantage of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IstillhateSteveBould Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 At this level you do need some physical presence. Not neccessarily be a massive beast of a player, just able to cope. McCormack or Rhodes are good examples of that. Rhodes is a terrible example. He's 6'1 and very physical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horny owl Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I just remember him rounding the keeper - the rest is historyWe were directly behind that goalStill get goose bumps remembering that one going in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geörge Whitebread Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 OK Rhodes might not be the best example, but he does fit the point I'm making. He isn't "VERY physical" at all. He may be 6'1" (2 inches taller than Lavery), but he's not exactly a big lump is he?! His game is all about finding space between defenders and nipping in behind to score exactly the sort of goal that he scored against us the other week. I used him as an example because he's the sort of player that plays in the way that the likes of Talbot, Lavery, May & Maguire (when up front) have to, and succeeds because he isn't knocked about all over by defenders (and because he was one of the first names to spring to mind that isn't a big target man type forward, if I'm honest). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
areNOTwhatTHEYseem Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I drew a Talbot. It too was unfinished and a bit rough around the edges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IstillhateSteveBould Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 OK Rhodes might not be the best example, but he does fit the point I'm making. He isn't "VERY physical" at all. He may be 6'1" (2 inches taller than Lavery), but he's not exactly a big lump is he?! His game is all about finding space between defenders and nipping in behind to score exactly the sort of goal that he scored against us the other week. I used him as an example because he's the sort of player that plays in the way that the likes of Talbot, Lavery, May & Maguire (when up front) have to, and succeeds because he isn't knocked about all over by defenders (and because he was one of the first names to spring to mind that isn't a big target man type forward, if I'm honest). Rhodes is more physical than you think. Very clever with how he uses his body and elbows to gain a little advantage over a defender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IstillhateSteveBould Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 George, come on now, this weirdo adamwestsleftear is your other login or mate or summat isn't it? Like a flipping stalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geörge Whitebread Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Fair enough. I just don't see him as a back to goal target man type that scores most of his goals with his head. So, like I say, the type of player that the four of our players mentioned aspire to play like. Anyway, the point is that most successful forwards at this level have some physical presence to them, otherwise they spend too much time nestled neatly in defenders' pockets. Just out of interest, here's a list of the top scorers at each club in the top ten right now... Bournemouth - Wilson, 5'11" Derby - Martin, 6'1" Watford - Ighalo, 6'2" Middlesborough - Bamford, 6'1" Norwich - Jerome, 6'1" Brentford - Gray, 5'10" Ipswich - Murphy 6'3" Wolves - Sako 6'0" Forest - Assombalonga, 5'10" Blackburn - Rhodes, 6'1" ...averaging a smidge over 6 foot. The smallest of which also have pace, skill and nouse on their side. Talbot had a bit of pace, but not enough skill or nouse. Lavery has a bit of pace and I personally think he might be there on the skill front too. I'll have to reserve judgement on whether his positional sense is there until I've seen him play up front a bit more. May seems to be able to find space, but unfortunately he's been closed down too quickly for him to do much so far. He doesn't seem to have the pace and isn't particularly tricky either. So he'll have to find his own way to be effective. I just can't work out how he's going to do it at this point. Maguire has been relegated to the wing because it seems to have been decided that he can't cut it up front. He's looked similar to May on the few occasions he's played up front to me. Owned by the centre back until he drops off to find space in the midfield and wide areas. p.s. I have absolutely no idea who adamwestsleftear is. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IstillhateSteveBould Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Fair enough. I just don't see him as a back to goal target man type that scores most of his goals with his head. So, like I say, the type of player that the four of our players mentioned aspire to play like. Anyway, the point is that most successful forwards at this level have some physical presence to them, otherwise they spend too much time nestled neatly in defenders' pockets. Just out of interest, here's a list of the top scorers at each club in the top ten right now... Bournemouth - Wilson, 5'11" Derby - Martin, 6'1" Watford - Ighalo, 6'2" Middlesborough - Bamford, 6'1" Norwich - Jerome, 6'1" Brentford - Gray, 5'10" Ipswich - Murphy 6'3" Wolves - Sako 6'0" Forest - Assombalonga, 5'10" Blackburn - Rhodes, 6'1" ...averaging a smidge over 6 foot. The smallest of which also have pace, skill and nouse on their side. Talbot had a bit of pace, but not enough skill or nouse. Lavery has a bit of pace and I personally think he might be there on the skill front too. I'll have to reserve judgement on whether his positional sense is there until I've seen him play up front a bit more. May seems to be able to find space, but unfortunately he's been closed down too quickly for him to do much so far. He doesn't seem to have the pace and isn't particularly tricky either. So he'll have to find his own way to be effective. I just can't work out how he's going to do it at this point. Maguire has been relegated to the wing because it seems to have been decided that he can't cut it up front. He's looked similar to May on the few occasions he's played up front to me. Owned by the centre back until he drops off to find space in the midfield and wide areas. p.s. I have absolutely no idea who adamwestsleftear is. Sorry. I think a physical presence up front is essential. Whether it's 442 or 451. We play 442 currently, and in my opinion you only need 1 with that physical presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IstillhateSteveBould Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 And you must be having me on about adamwestsleftear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geörge Whitebread Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 And you must be having me on about adamwestsleftear I know what you mean, but I seriously have no idea who he is. I can't help but like him though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IstillhateSteveBould Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I know what you mean, but I seriously have no idea who he is. I can't help but like him though. I bet you do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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