The Talisman Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I am struggling with this accounts wise. Accruals are basically costs that relate to an accounting year but for which no invoice had been received by the year end date. At the simplest level this could be that you only get a utility bill every 3 months and the last one received was 2 months before the year end. You therefore accrue for 2 months enery use Equally our fee to do the accounts is accrued because whilst it relates to the year we can't start work until the year is up As the business gets more complicated you could accrue for holiday pay, bonuses, all sorts of tax avoidance legitimate provisions A loan is not a cost (the loan interest is of course and you would accrue for that) in my view it is a method of funding. Generally loans, like the bank overdraft or monies from UKFI are disclosed as that. The fact it is disclosed makes it less of an issue that it is an accruals and its not that major in the scheme of things but lets just say I wouldn't want to explain to my Annual Compliance Review lady (Scary Caryl) why I thought that was the right thing to do, but accountancy is all about judgements so who is to say I am right I agree again with Mk. The other loans are in the right overall category creditors less than 1 year but in my view they're in the wrong sub-category. Loans or perhaps other creditors would be a better classification. I wondered whether it had been done so attention wasn't drawn to the loans but then (as Mk notes above) they go and draw attention to it. It's all a bit odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanzaroteowl Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Does any of it really matter now except the £5M annual loss that needs to be quickly rectified? The figures are already 10 months out of date and we have a takeover happening as we speak/type, this will give us a clean slate to work off from now on. Milan's happy with his profit, the new owners will be like a kid on Christmas morning and we have a bright and exciting future to look forward to. The futures bright , the futures blue and white! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handworth52 Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 prices cant drop I think we are very well priced ,people will only come back if we score goals and entertain which we defo aint doing this season,we are the most boring team in the uk at home . if we get it right we would get near 30k every week. our turnover is pathetic considering crowd base etc and we are making prob smallest amount from catering only 300k and service is dreadful nowhere near enough staff and always sold out of pies etc. we need to prob double our turnover to be able to compete. but the figures for wages don't take into account that a number of our highest earners left in summer so I will be surprised if wage bill hasn't dropped by appx 2million this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Johnbloodaxe Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I am struggling with this accounts wise. Accruals are basically costs that relate to an accounting year but for which no invoice had been received by the year end date. At the simplest level this could be that you only get a utility bill every 3 months and the last one received was 2 months before the year end. You therefore accrue for 2 months enery use Equally our fee to do the accounts is accrued because whilst it relates to the year we can't start work until the year is up As the business gets more complicated you could accrue for holiday pay, bonuses, all sorts of tax avoidance legitimate provisions A loan is not a cost (the loan interest is of course and you would accrue for that) in my view it is a method of funding. Generally loans, like the bank overdraft or monies from UKFI are disclosed as that. The fact it is disclosed makes it less of an issue that it is an accruals and its not that major in the scheme of things but lets just say I wouldn't want to explain to my Annual Compliance Review lady (Scary Caryl) why I thought that was the right thing to do, but accountancy is all about judgements so who is to say I am right My thoughts were it would be accrued interest against the loans. So not taken but accruing and then settled once the club was purchased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just visiting Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Welcome back JV. A few more good results and we'll see you back in the Leeds thread. It's been a while. Welcome back? I've never been away. The Leeds thread ran it's course and became littered with posters that contributed nothing to the thread. Looks like you've found your way onto here as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Road Runner Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I am struggling with this accounts wise. Accruals are basically costs that relate to an accounting year but for which no invoice had been received by the year end date. At the simplest level this could be that you only get a utility bill every 3 months and the last one received was 2 months before the year end. You therefore accrue for 2 months enery use Equally our fee to do the accounts is accrued because whilst it relates to the year we can't start work until the year is up As the business gets more complicated you could accrue for holiday pay, bonuses, all sorts of tax avoidance legitimate provisions A loan is not a cost (the loan interest is of course and you would accrue for that) in my view it is a method of funding. Generally loans, like the bank overdraft or monies from UKFI are disclosed as that. The fact it is disclosed makes it less of an issue that it is an accruals and its not that major in the scheme of things but lets just say I wouldn't want to explain to my Annual Compliance Review lady (Scary Caryl) why I thought that was the right thing to do, but accountancy is all about judgements so who is to say I am right Well that's my brain mashed up for the weekend then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robster_owl Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) This is the reason there is non matchday corp revenue http://www.hillsboroughstadium.com/ Seperate company. Anyone know who owns it? Also if we got taken over wouldnt the debt currently stand at £0 Chris Snape of The Lindley Group was the registrant of this domain name... further details here...https://who.is/whois/https://www.hillsboroughstadium.com Edited February 27, 2015 by robster_owl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 My thoughts were it would be accrued interest against the loans. So not taken but accruing and then settled once the club was purchased. The loan capital as well as any accrued interest is categorised as accruals Not generally normal practice but hey ho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Well that's my brain mashed up for the weekend then. All part of the service to stop you remembering a 0-0 football delight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Johnbloodaxe Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 At the moment we have no clue or seen any clues has to how the Chansari deal has been structured. I suspect they have a new holding company that will have acquired the Swfc ltd shares held by Ukfi. We know no new shares have been issued in swfc itself otherthan the 822k share for debt swap in November We know the secured loans have gone but no new security has yet been lodged if the new chaps are using debt Interesting you say about management charges because the accounts should disclose this and the amount if true The accounts have also been silent on ultimate control of ukfi for a couple of years now. But the accounts show the 3rd party loans in accruals which is an interesting choice of classification I would have thought that the new owners would put the purchase of the club, i.e. the amount paid to MM and the cost of the takeover e.g. prof fees etc. as a debt against the club as per just about every other takeover that happens. You only have to look at the Thai group that bought leicester city and their resultant £100mm plus debt that they had prior to promotion to prem. As for management fees for the accounts, the fees charged by the holding company not based in this country can be around 10-15% legitimately and wouldn't necessarily show separately in the SWFC accounts but could show in the UK holding companies accounts. The loan management fees don't have to be shown separately. As you know there are many ways that the owners can legitimately be taking money from the clubs revenue without having to declare them in detail or in any recognisable form in these summary accounts. There's nothing wrong with it, but summary accounts are just that - no detail. MM will have made plenty from his time with the club, don't begrudge him it BUT some posters still believe he has been shoveling £5mm a year into the club to keep it afloat when more than likely him legitimately taking money out is part of what causes the accounts to show a £5mm loss in the first place. We just have to grow up about these things. Business is not fairy land!!! It's business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Road Runner Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Chris Snape of The Lindley Group was the registrant of this domain name... further details here... https://who.is/whois/https://www.hillsboroughstadium.com Lindley Group was bought out by Centre plate. Think its them who take all profits/losses from this side. They paid a fee and we outsource to them. <--- something we need to look at in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robster_owl Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) Lindley Group was bought out by Centre plate. Think its them who take all profits/losses from this side. They paid a fee and we outsource to them. <--- something we need to look at in my opinion. I wonder how long that contract has left to run, before renewal or move our seperate ways.I can't see Chansiri accepting such small pocket change in catering revenue, due in part to poor offerings and service etc in the MD catering dept. Nor I can't see the benefit of the current catering deal structure appealing to him, I think he will try to blend higher calibre sponsorship into this area. Also along with increasing the quality and customer service levels ultimately hoping for increased revenue he won't want to miss ANY chance of benefiting of which I can't see the current deal working to his or the club's advantage. Of course the current deal is somewhat beneficial to all concerned pre takeover but post takeover it will no doubt be one of many future areas of the club that will be taken up a couple of notches. As with all aspects, proof will be in the pudding and time will tell! Edited February 27, 2015 by robster_owl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveyboy66 Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Can't wait for Monday but my guess is little will be revealed and the situation will run on into the summer months with PA holding the fort for a little time longer. As for the future it's a very broad spectrum of possibilities... At the one end of the scale Take over debt financed, management charges to the consortium and hoping to roll 'snake eyes' twice running. In the Middle equity financed steady building with the aim of the promised land in 3 to 4 years. Then there's mega debt financing, land acquisitions, a complete redevelopment of the ground and area with a grand social input similar to Etihad, and employment ! What's your hope ? my hope is that you'll stop slagging the club off at very turn...I'll not hold my breath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) I would have thought that the new owners would put the purchase of the club, i.e. the amount paid to MM and the cost of the takeover e.g. prof fees etc. as a debt against the club as per just about every other takeover that happens. You only have to look at the Thai group that bought leicester city and their resultant £100mm plus debt that they had prior to promotion to prem. As for management fees for the accounts, the fees charged by the holding company not based in this country can be around 10-15% legitimately and wouldn't necessarily show separately in the SWFC accounts but could show in the UK holding companies accounts. The loan management fees don't have to be shown separately. As you know there are many ways that the owners can legitimately be taking money from the clubs revenue without having to declare them in detail or in any recognisable form in these summary accounts. There's nothing wrong with it, but summary accounts are just that - no detail. MM will have made plenty from his time with the club, don't begrudge him it BUT some posters still believe he has been shoveling £5mm a year into the club to keep it afloat when more than likely him legitimately taking money out is part of what causes the accounts to show a £5mm loss in the first place. We just have to grow up about these things. Business is not fairy land!!! It's business. Boring technical point but FRS 8 Related Party Disclosures would require specific disclosure of transactions between the holding company and subsidiary to be shown in both sets of accounts or otherwise say an exemption applies (which wouldn't as the UKFI accounts are not publically available) I agree in general terms that remuneration, fees and interest all would add to a loss and that skews the figures. The company did pay nearly £0.5m on interest btw. However a big chunk of the £5.5m is still genuine operating losses Edited February 27, 2015 by mkowl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevthelodgemoorowl Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Pardon ? Daveyboy66 where did that come from ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Talisman Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 My thoughts were it would be accrued interest against the loans. So not taken but accruing and then settled once the club was purchased. Boring technical point but FRS 8 Related Party Disclosures would require specific disclosure of transactions between the holding company and subsidiary to be shown in both sets of accounts or otherwise say an exemption applies (which wouldn't as the UKFI accounts are not publically available) I agree in general terms that remuneration, fees and interest all would add to a loss and that skews the figures. The company did pay nearly £0.5m on interest btw. However a big chunk of the £5.5m is still genuine operating losses I'm in two minds on whether the interest on the other loans has been paid or not. The cash flow statement says it has but the I wonder whether its just been accrued and adjusted through creditors in the cashflow statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Welcome back? I've never been away. The Leeds thread ran it's course and became littered with posters that contributed nothing to the thread. Looks like you've found your way onto here as well. Haha, I agree with that. Oh well, things are looking up for your boys now MC has gone less crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradowl Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) What would losses have been come end of this season? Match day and season ticket prices increased a little on last season but are our attendances up or down on last season? I guess season ticket sales are slightly down but we've done away with free U8s and if average is up we should have a little more income unless wages have increased. Edited February 27, 2015 by bradowl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I'm in two minds on whether the interest on the other loans has been paid or not. The cash flow statement says it has but the I wonder whether its just been accrued and adjusted through creditors in the cashflow statement? It depends if the 2nd year trainee drafted the accounts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Johnbloodaxe Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 It depends if the 2nd year trainee drafted the accounts A bit cruel... My thoughts were that they may accrue management fees and \ or interest as book entries BUT wouldn't take cash out to preserve the cash flow, and simply take it out as and when the club was sold. So building the debt in the club as a tax efficient model for taking the proceeds form the sale. So when I mentioned that the debt was made up of some of the proceeds taken in fees etc. I just meant as book entries not cash as MM had every intention of selling as soon as he could therefore everything is structured to make that exit as efficient as possible. Which is what I would do, wouldn't you? However you would do that within accounting rules etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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