modboy Posted May 30, 2014 Author Share Posted May 30, 2014 perhaps we need a "clean up football" scheme then or similar. A code clubs could sign up to on a voluntary basis? Whilst Madine is a fool the thought of an Evans or King playing for my club repulses me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagmeister Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) perhaps we need a "clean up football" scheme then or similar. A code clubs could sign up to on a voluntary basis? Whilst Madine is a fool the thought of an Evans or King playing for my club repulses me. As I've said I prefer to leave things as they are i.e. leave punishments to the law and morals to individual clubs. There is also the point of where to draw the line. Whilst you refer to Madine as a fool, and even though I support the club giving him another chance, I would say that three violent and criminal assaults on separate occasions indicates thuggery rather than mere foolishness in many peoples' eyes. Edited May 30, 2014 by Dagmeister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Owl Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I think you would have to change the law ,something about the resettlement of offenders act may get in the way We transporting them to Australia again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Owl Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) I suspect that a blanket ban within professional English football would fall foul of British law. Even if not I'd expect that ultimately the European Court of Appeal would stymie it anyway. Just my opinion. I expect it will be left in the hands of individual clubs to decide whether or not to employ and I'd hazard a guess that expediency would be the arbiter in any decision making. The law of contract is sacrosanct provided that the contract is drawn up for a purpose that is neither illegal or immoral and that both parties agree to it's terms. If a clause governing the players behaviour were inserted into the contract then provided both parties have agreed to it the law will not and cannot interfere. As for the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, that is a complete red herring in this case as it takes years for the offence to be wiped from your criminal record by which time most players who have committed offences will have ended their careers. In any event any moral hazard clause would take this into account. In addition what about the role model aspect? Do we really want to teach our kids that just because you are good at sport even a stint in prison doesn't affect your employment prospects/earning power? What sort of message does that send out? Put it another way, for us mere mortals if we fell foul of the law and went to jail what would our chances of employment be with our former employer regardless of how good we were at our job? Edited May 30, 2014 by Utah Owl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torryowl Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 there are no morals in football everyone knows that ....what company would employ someone who broke the jaw of one of there customers like madine did or continue to employ someone who took a high powered air rifle to work and shot a fellow a worker as ashly cole did .I suspect that if it was the customer who attacked madine he´d be banned from Hillsboro for life and same for the lad if he had shot ashly cole . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Lestrade Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 its time for the PFA to draw up some guidelines re "professionalism" imo. Players such as Ched who have raped someone or King who has been convicted of sex related cases should not be allowed to play again in this country. Add in players involved in the death of someone like that lad from Plymouth should also be banned for life. Then down to lesser offences such as Madine etc should be 3 chances (convictions) and you are out. if you took this to the extreme then people with convictions would never work again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Lestrade Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 there are no morals in football everyone knows that ....what company would employ someone who broke the jaw of one of there customers like madine did or continue to employ someone who took a high powered air rifle to work and shot a fellow a worker as ashly cole did .I suspect that if it was the customer who attacked madine he´d be banned from Hillsboro for life and same for the lad if he had shot ashly cole . I would guess that many large companies employ people with convictions, especially ones as the "pub brawl type" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagmeister Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) The law of contract is sacrosanct provided that the contract is drawn up for a purpose that is neither illegal or immoral and that both parties agree to it's terms. If a clause governing the players behaviour were inserted into the contract then provided both parties have agreed to it the law will not and cannot interfere. Agreed I dont dispute this. Its if individual clubs were forced to insert things into contracts against their will by their governing bodies that I belive would fall foul of the law. i.e each and every club should be able tomake its own decisions in this respect. As for the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, that is a complete red herring in this case as it takes years for the offence to be wiped from your criminal record by which time most players who have committed offences will have ended their careers. In any event any moral hazard clause would take this into account. In addition what about the role model aspect? Do we really want to teach our kids that just because you are good at sport even a stint in prison doesn't affect your employment prospects/earning power? What sort of message does that send out? I know what you're saying fair enough. My view though is as stated; leave punishments to the law and morals to the individuals/individal clubs. Put it another way, for us mere mortals if we fell foul of the law and went to jail what would our chances of employment be with our former employer regardless of how good we were at our job? It really does depend on the eployer and individual circumstances. Probably not great although it can and does happen where offenders are re-employed. The decision is rightly (IMO) in the hands of the individual employer though ( of course there are exceptions e.g. sex offender register and working with vulnerable people/children ) In summary, I understand the opposing views and would not claim that they are wrong any more than mine are right. They're both just opinions. In the case of Evans; he still protests his innocence and says he is committed to striving to clear his name. Whether he is is not my concern; the law has spoken and he has been found guilty. That's it unless he can legally prove otherwise at a subsequent time. If I accept that the law is final in this aspect then my belief is exactly the same with regards to punishment. There should be no incremental punishment imposed by other bodies outside of the law. Individual contract terms within the law pertaining to morals/ehtics; fine. Edited May 31, 2014 by Dagmeister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torryowl Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 I would guess that many large companies employ people with convictions, especially ones as the "pub brawl type"I,m sure they do but not when they break the jaw of one of there customers or shoot one of there work colleagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Distraught! Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 I,m sure they do but not when they break the jaw of one of there customers or shoot one of there work colleagues. Nobody was ever dismissed from the Kray Firm for doing this kind of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chezzyowl62 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Let he who is without sin cast first stone ! We have all broke the law at some time ie :- Speeding which could end in serious consciences .Why do so many people get on there high horse on this forum ! Sorry rant over WAWAW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modboy Posted May 31, 2014 Author Share Posted May 31, 2014 Let he who is without sin cast first stone ! We have all broke the law at some time ie :- Speeding which could end in serious consciences .Why do so many people get on there high horse on this forum ! Sorry rant over WAWAW because footballers should be role models to kids etc It makes me sick that Evans or Lee Hughes etc can come back and earn a fortune after committing and being convicted of heinous acts. Teachers, medical professionals etc all have industry guidelines that if they break the law its game over for them. They are supposed to be upstanding members of the public. Would you want your kids to have a teacher who had raped someone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torryowl Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 because footballers should be role models to kids etc It makes me sick that Evans or Lee Hughes etc can come back and earn a fortune after committing and being convicted of heinous acts. Teachers, medical professionals etc all have industry guidelines that if they break the law its game over for them. They are supposed to be upstanding members of the public. Would you want your kids to have a teacher who had raped someone? while I understand where your coming from footballers are just blokes who are good at kicking a ball that people expect them to be role models is down to those doing the expecting not the players . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modboy Posted May 31, 2014 Author Share Posted May 31, 2014 while I understand where your coming from footballers are just blokes who are good at kicking a ball that people expect them to be role models is down to those doing the expecting not the players . but why shouldnt they be role models? Yes some make mistakes like many of us have done so, but if they have played a part in a death or rape of someone then the authorities should have the right to ban them from earning a very good career. Look at Reda last year, true credit to SWFC and rightly won the community award, Beckham always seems to have done the right thing (apart from that Loos girl) and probably many more. If the game really wanted to pull together and clean up their act OR if we as supporters demanded this then they would do so, just as they have tried to do with the "kick racism out" campaigns etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagmeister Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 but if they have played a part in a death or rape of someone then the authorities should have the right to ban them from earning a very good career. Absolutely not. Punishment is the job of the legal system but of course it should be appropriate to the crime. ................. Would you want your kids to have a teacher who had raped someone? The law takes care of this. It cannot happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modboy Posted May 31, 2014 Author Share Posted May 31, 2014 Absolutely not. Punishment is the job of the legal system but of course it should be appropriate to the crime. The law takes care of this. It cannot happen. doesnt work like this in other professions though. Would a teacher get a job if he killed someone whilst drunk driving? Would a nurse get a job if they raped someone on a night out? Not a cat in hells chance. Footballs need bringing into the real world. What next a peodophile would be able to sign for a team once he has done time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theowlsman Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 I've got an idea for a TV show. A bit like Crimewatch but all about footballers or people connected with football + crime. Each week, viewers listen to what three people have done that is against the law, and vote on one person to remain in football. The winner gets a contract with Sheffield United. The other two get stoned by Owlstalkers. The money from dialling in, or texting votes, goes to my holiday fund cos it was my idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarboro-owl Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 The law of contract is sacrosanct provided that the contract is drawn up for a purpose that is neither illegal or immoral and that both parties agree to it's terms. If a clause governing the players behaviour were inserted into the contract then provided both parties have agreed to it the law will not and cannot interfere. As for the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, that is a complete red herring in this case as it takes years for the offence to be wiped from your criminal record by which time most players who have committed offences will have ended their careers. In any event any moral hazard clause would take this into account. In addition what about the role model aspect? Do we really want to teach our kids that just because you are good at sport even a stint in prison doesn't affect your employment prospects/earning power? What sort of message does that send out? Put it another way, for us mere mortals if we fell foul of the law and went to jail what would our chances of employment be with our former employer regardless of how good we were at our job? if your employer had paid serious money for you, or could sell you to another employer, i think you'd find your job pretty safe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagmeister Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 doesnt work like this in other professions though. Would a teacher get a job if he killed someone whilst drunk driving? Would a nurse get a job if they raped someone on a night out? Not a cat in hells chance. Footballs need bringing into the real world. What next a peodophile would be able to sign for a team once he has done time? We'll have to agree to differ I think. Where do you draw the line as to what crimes allow for the culprit to re-enter society again. Who will arbitrate; you, me? Are you saying that a convicted person cannot get a job again after already being punished by the legal system? Should they rely on the state for handouts forever or should they be allowed to gain employment so long as it's not in a profession that makes others envious? We have a legal system to deal with offenders. I think it's best left that way. I think it will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopePiusX Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 They should all have to sign for the same club, called Her Majesty's Leisure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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