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The police should have blocked off the entrance to the central pen. The police should have insisted the kick off was delayed until all fans were in. They should have had cordons set up round the ground to weed out non ticket holders. Those actions could have averted disaster. There was a window of about 30 minutes as the crush was developing outside and inside where things could have been done differently. Nobody saw it coming as nobody can predict the future.

The fans should have been in the ground by 2.30, as instructed on the tickets (I assume). Every fan in the area should have been in possession of a ticket. The fans should have queued in an orderly manner to get into the ground.

The turnstiles should have been capable of admitting enough fans in enough time. The capacity of various areas should have been monitored properly and access denied when they reach those numbers.

The fences shouldn't have been there. It was disgraceful to treat people like animals. But at the time it was the way fans were seen. Heysel and every other incident of hooliganism led to it.

Find the blame amongst that lot and tell me what justice would be.

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The fans should have been in the ground by 2.30, as instructed on the tickets (I assume). Every fan in the area should have been in possession of a ticket.

For future reference, the tickets stated each supporter should take up his position 15 minutes before kick-off. The first police call to open the gates was made at 2:47pm. The central pens were already dangerously full at 2:50pm, before the gates were even opened.

Edited by Sonny
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For future reference, the tickets stated each supporter should take up his position 15 minutes before kick-off. The first police call to open the gates was made at 2:47pm.

Cheers. If people could re read my post with that info please. The point still stands.

Also, does it say 15 minutes or 'at least' 15 minutes?

Edited by latemodelchild
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My dad worked on the turnstile directly next to the gate that was opened to let the fans in so as to relieve the pressure outside as what eventually happened inside was about to happen there.

I argue with him to this day about that day although to be honest the discussion has waned over the last few years and we've agreed to disagree.

He recounts horrific stories relating to the situation outside re. the crush, behaviour, panic and disorder.

He fully appreciates the decision taken by the police and why it had to be taken.

Where we disagree is who is to blame.

Ticketless fans should never have got that far in my opinion and when the decision was taken to essentially bypass the turnstile-managed entry system then there should have been an element of controlling the influx of fans on the inside of the stadium.

If it had happened at a music event we would not be having this conversation now is what I always say.

Bad crowd control/management from start to finish and the basics were forgotten,overtaken and covered up due to the prejudice applied to football fans and football in general.

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Honest opinion then mate....were Liverpool fans blameless?...because thats the crux of this dogs breakfast of a thread...answer honestly...

No they were not...and thats the crux of my argument. If liverpool fans could accept their involvement then perhaps we could all move...although somehow i doubt it.

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For any of the older fans among us, I am curious to know what was the atmosphere like the first time Liverpool came back to Hillsborough to play us?

Was it nasty, poisonous or more somber and quiet?

the first game at hillsborough for liverpool after the disaster.

was in nov 89 a game brought forward because the original date clashed with the 1st anniversary of the disaster.

if i remember correctly there was a minutes silence and then a laying of wreaths on the empty leppings lane terrace by chris turner and alan hansen.

we won the match 2-0 goals from hirst and atkinson.

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the first game at hillsborough for liverpool after the disaster.

was in nov 89 a game brought forward because the original date clashed with the 1st anniversary of the disaster.

if i remember correctly there was a minutes silence and then a laying of wreaths on the empty leppings lane terrace by chris turner and alan hansen.

we won the match 2-0 goals from hirst and atkinson.

Atkinsons was a cracker. Ran from halfway line and smashed it from edge of box IIRC.

I remember being on the north and there were some scousers behind us, one of them quite fat. That, the goal, and meeting 2 families who friends of ours had helped on the day are things I remember. Also, seeing a fair few guys not wanting to go in, at least 2 were being virtually dragged in by mates. It was pretty harrowing really. The minutes silence was impecable and moving. There was a photographer who was almost standing in the lower Lepp when it started and someone shouted to him to get out, but the papers reported that shout as an anguished wail. Strange what you remember innit?

When we get back to the Prem and play Liverpool it'll be like they've never been back since in the media etc., even though they've played here a few times I assume.

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Atkinsons was a cracker. Ran from halfway line and smashed it from edge of box IIRC.

I remember being on the north and there were some scousers behind us, one of them quite fat. That, the goal, and meeting 2 families who friends of ours had helped on the day are things I remember. Also, seeing a fair few guys not wanting to go in, at least 2 were being virtually dragged in by mates. It was pretty harrowing really. The minutes silence was impecable and moving. There was a photographer who was almost standing in the lower Lepp when it started and someone shouted to him to get out, but the papers reported that shout as an anguished wail. Strange what you remember innit?

When we get back to the Prem and play Liverpool it'll be like they've never been back since in the media etc., even though they've played here a few times I assume.

i would say about 9 times since disaster,the last time was the first match of the relegation season.
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I thought this deserved a wider audience than it's place in the 'non-SWFC section' of the site :

The 96 innocents who died were in no way to blame. That is the only fact that isnt up for debate. They died because they were crushed in an area that couldnt hold that many people. Unfortunately, there are many many factors that led to the disater, and not just on that day either.

This is why I struggle to understand what 'justice' is in this respect. It was an accident and people were at fault. The police for losing control. SWFC for not having abn up to date or up to code safety certificate. The FA for choosing a ground that didnt have that certificate. The government for allowing a section of society, ie football fans, to be treated as second class citizens. Every hooligan whos actions led to fencing. Every fan who turned up without a ticket with the idea that they could force their way in. Every fan who did that at any other game. You also cant apply todays societys morals and feelings to that of society 23 years ago. It was a different time, in no small way because of what happened.

Thats where the blame lies. It doesnt lie in one quarter only, it lies in many in varying degrees. So how does justice be served there? Is it about blame? Would it give people closure if the report said that SYP were to blame 100%? Or that the ticketless fans were? Or that SWFC were? Cos if thats whats needed for closure then I'm afraid it will never happen.

I know who was at fault, and I've posted it above. I know who thw real heroes were. It was my mum who went to work at the hospital. It was the fans who helped. It was the staff at SWFC who helped. It was the police officers who saved lives. It was the medical staff who svaed lives. It was the residents of Hillsborough who took in families and made cups of tea and showed basic human compassion and dignity to those who needed it. It was the football family that helped. There is no issue with the recognition of who did the good stuff and I'm surprised to see you post as such.

The current enquiry will hopefully bring closure to the families of the 96. However, it may also make for uncomfortable reading for some. What has to be remembered is that not all the coppers were bad and not all the fans were angels. That middle ground is where the truth lies. There can be no tarring with the same brush as that is unfair on those who are blameless and also allows those with blame at their feet to hide.

I hope my post doesnt offend, I've tried to speak straight and as I see it and only wish to continue debate.

RIP the 96 innocents.

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the first game at hillsborough for liverpool after the disaster.

was in nov 89 a game brought forward because the original date clashed with the 1st anniversary of the disaster.

if i remember correctly there was a minutes silence and then a laying of wreaths on the empty leppings lane terrace by chris turner and alan hansen.

we won the match 2-0 goals from hirst and atkinson.

You had to wait on that corner as a "holding area" before you were taken to get your tickets for the League Cup Final in 1991.

I remember it being a sunny morning but still felt very eerie on there.

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