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Lets take nothing away from the families. My sympathies go out to everyone who's ever loved a lost one no matter how tragic or normal the circumstances, but all this justice nonsense that's always called for is never going to be that without the ticket-less being held accountable, and not once has a Liverpool fan asked for that! at least not publicly!

Exactly this.

I agree that today isn't the day to discuss who was to blame but I get sick of hearing all this JFT96 rubbish.

A number of factors caused the tragedy including the action of the Liverpool fans themselves. Nothing will ever change my view on that.

And the wire fences that were put up at the front of all football terraces that prevented people escaping the crush - why were they put up? Heysel. And who caused Heysel.....?

As I previously said my heart goes out to those who lost loved ones but all this justice rubbish needs to stop. If it doesn't my worry is the chants that the Chelsea fans were shouting may become a regular occurrence across the country.

And I'm so glad we no longer have a minutes silence at Hillsborough now.

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Not sure it's the F.A's call

as for your other point re Liverpool yesterday I have no problem with that.

In some ways I prefer the minutes applause at least that way if you prefer not to you don't have to participate. With the silence the only alternative is to make noise which might offend others

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/everton-fc/everton-fc-news/2012/04/10/wembley-to-remember-hillsborough-victims-with-a-minutes-silence-before-fa-cup-semi-final-100252-30727007/

Looks like it was the FA who decided according to this article. Though to be fair they are over a barrell on this one, as its impossible to say no.

Also, I didnt see yesterdays game, did they play you'll never walk alone before the game? If so, did they play the Z Cars theme too?

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If the FA deem that a minutes silence is to be observed then it should be. Its basic respect for fellow humans.

Personally, I dont think there needed to be a minutes silence but as there was, if I was there I would have observed it, as I do every one I'm asked to. If Liverpool and Everton wanted one yesterday then fine. If Liverpool want one at their closest game to the anniversary then I'm fine with that. The rest of the footballing world doesnt need to though.

I think the problem on here mate is that Wednesday fans are torn between sympathy for the 96 folk that died on that day...and what they really think about it...the reasons it happened and the responsibility for it.....Let me hold me hans up here....

I was partly responsible for all the sh*te that went on in the 70's...ive got into grounds for nowt..ive hopped through gates as Wednesday fans knocked them down at Port Vale, Halifax etc in the 70's...and theres hardly a footbll fan of my age that has not taken advantage of the sh*te that went on then...So in some way I...and thousands of others are responsible for fencing going up at football grounds...no bugger meant to kill any other bugger ..some wre more violent than others,,,I have never hit anyone at a football match unless they attacked me first...but all this sh*te culminated in Hillsborough 89...and Liverpool fans were not behind the door in bringing it about....

You get this media conception of Liverpool fans being this... "Hail fellow ...well met "..stuff ..its flipping garbage as any Wednesday fan who went to Anfield in the 80's will tell you...They were as bad..if not worse than any other group of hooligans in the country...Then there was Heysel...now who's fvckin' fault was that?...Liverpool Hooligans.....prepared to throw bricks...charge fences and cause panic in Juventus fans...did they mean to kill 39 of the poor bleeders?...did they hell...but they played a major part in the deaths of those 39 innocents...and anyone who thinks different is an inch offa stupid....So we arrive at Hillsborough...Were there Liverpool fans trying to get in without tickets?...of course there fvckin' were.....same as if it had been Wednesday away somewhere with tickets at a premium....

Liverpool fans bear some of the responsibility about Hillsborough '89....but no fvcker will hold their hands up..

Edited by asteener1867
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I think the problem on here mate is that Wednesday fans are torn between sympathy for the 96 folk that died on that day...and what they really think about it...the reasons it happened and the responsibility for it.....Let me hold me hans up here....

I was partly responsible for all the sh*te that went on in the 70's...ive got into grounds for nowt..ive hopped through gates as Wednesday fans knocked them down at Port Vale, Halifax etc in the 70's...and theres hardly a footbll fan of my age that has not taken advantage of the sh*te that went on then...So in some way I...and thousands of others are responsible for fencing going up at football grounds...no bugger meant to kill any other bugger ..some wre more violent than others,,,I have never hit anyone at a football match unless they attacked me first...but all this sh*te culminated in Hillsborough 89...and Liverpool fans were not behind the door in bringing it about....

You get this media conception of Liverpool fans being this... "Hail fellow ...well met "..stuff ..its flipping garbage as any Wednesday fan who went to Anfield in the 80's will tell you...They were as bad..if not worse than any other group of hooligans in the country...Then there was Heysel...now who's fvckin' fault was that?...Liverpool Hooligans.....prepared to throw bricks...charge fences and cause panic in Juventus fans...did they mean to kill 39 of the poor bleeders?...did they hell...but they played a major part in the deaths of those 39 innocents...and anyone who thinks different is an inch offa stupid....So we arrive at Hillsborough...Were there Liverpool fans trying to get in without tickets?...of course there fvckin' were.....same as if it had been Wednesday away somewhere with tickets at a premium....

Liverpool fans bear some of the responsibility about Hillsborough '89....but no fvcker will hold their hands up..

This

Problem is that the media still present this image of the red side and blue side of Liverpool being bezzy mates. We get all the crap about them sitting together in the ground and congratulating each other when one of them scores. The idea that yesterday when Carolle slotted in the winner an Everton fan sat next to his Liverpool mate and saying "Well done La maybe next year " and shaking him warmly by the hand. It's a media myth just like the one about the North east being a hot bed of football. Newcastle were getting crowds smaller than our porcine neighbours not many years ago

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Exactly this.

I agree that today isn't the day to discuss who was to blame but I get sick of hearing all this JFT96 rubbish.

A number of factors caused the tragedy including the action of the Liverpool fans themselves. Nothing will ever change my view on that.

And the wire fences that were put up at the front of all football terraces that prevented people escaping the crush - why were they put up? Heysel. And who caused Heysel.....?

As I previously said my heart goes out to those who lost loved ones but all this justice rubbish needs to stop. If it doesn't my worry is the chants that the Chelsea fans were shouting may become a regular occurrence across the country.

And I'm so glad we no longer have a minutes silence at Hillsborough now.

Fact of the matter is had all those fans not turned up without a ticket and mixed with those with tickets and caused that large crowd outside Leppings lane then that wall might not have become unsafe with all the pressure on it. Had that fallen i bet fans would have been killed also. The police opened the gate to let fans in to get the pressure off that wall. Had the police thought about it a bit more they could have put police/stewards at the tunnel entrance and send fans round the side.

Had those without tickets not turned up like they were asked not too then we wouldnt have this every year.

Yes the fences played a part but why didnt this happen at every ground?

Simple matter of common sense,mostly from ticketless fans are to blame and a panicking actions from the police who tried to prevent one disaster but caused another by rushing and not thinking their actions through.

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With the absolute utmost respect and with my greatest sympathy for you and particularly your friend and his family, I feel that we (Wednesdayites) should be allowed to move on from this now. I support the '96' families campaign for full transparency, however, it's been 23 years now and I think it's time that SWFC and it's fans should be released from this hidden/implied burden of guilt that we have been carrying since that terrible day.

I do not wish to offend and I hope you appreciate my sincerity.

excellent post. it's time to move on now.
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I'm guessing a lot of the animosity from Chelsea fans would be due to them being made to play their semi final today because Liverpool won't play on 15th April and so Chelsea now have to play their Champions League semi final within 2 days.

Maybe its also due to some people trying to blame Heysel on Chelsea fans who had 'infiltrated' Liverpool fans on that night and caused the trouble.

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I'm guessing a lot of the animosity from Chelsea fans would be due to them being made to play their semi final today because Liverpool won't play on 15th April and so Chelsea now have to play their Champions League semi final within 2 days.

Maybe its also due to some people trying to blame Heysel on Chelsea fans who had 'infiltrated' Liverpool fans on that night and caused the trouble.

I didnt know that one!

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I was there that day - as an 18 year old working one of the turnstiles on Leppings Lane. Having to let three fans through at a time on one quarter turn of the stile because only one had a ticket and it was too crushed outside to turn them round. Dozens of times.

The real travesty is the 96 were there on time, safely, not drunk, with tickets...and those who campaign loudest (apart from the bereaved, for whom I have deepest sympathy) are the ones who were late, drunk and ticketless - much like the ones who came back to my turnstile at 3.15 (while I was still finishing) banging on the window blaming me for the problems.

Unfortunately, 'Justice' in this case doesn't actually mean Justice - it means scapegoat and it means SYP. They may not have been blameless, but they are not culpable.

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Tthe Lep was below capacity when the crush occurred... Problem was the central pens weren't closed off so everyone herded into them. Similar thing happened with Spurs in 1981 apparently, but that time they shut off those pens in time to prevent deaths although people still had to climb the fences to escape.

It happened with other teams at Hillsborough and elsewhere. I just can't see how Liverpool can be called murderers when pure luck meant it didn't happen to another team.

And the Wembley silence was also for Morosini, so doubly sad that Chelsea couldn't just show some respect.

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I was there that day - as an 18 year old working one of the turnstiles on Leppings Lane. Having to let three fans through at a time on one quarter turn of the stile because only one had a ticket and it was too crushed outside to turn them round. Dozens of times.

The real travesty is the 96 were there on time, safely, not drunk, with tickets...and those who campaign loudest (apart from the bereaved, for whom I have deepest sympathy) are the ones who were late, drunk and ticketless - much like the ones who came back to my turnstile at 3.15 (while I was still finishing) banging on the window blaming me for the problems.

Unfortunately, 'Justice' in this case doesn't actually mean Justice - it means scapegoat and it means SYP. They may not have been blameless, but they are not culpable.

me too.....21 and on the last gate on the south stand (lep end)

Many drunk, knife pulled on me 3 times on the day, spat at numerous times and offered £20/30/50 numerous times.

I know what happened, I was there watching it unfold. Watch your jimmy mcgovern drama documentaries and read all the books you like but whatever you do, dont let the liverpool fans re-write history.

yes -the ground

yes syp

but dont let anyone tell that the liverpool fans had nothing to do with it, they were one of the worst sets of fans in the country. Ilike asteneer I went to anfield in the 80's and saw people done with stanley knives and everthing else.

It affected me for years, there for the grace of god and all that, but now I can come to terms with it all, and appreciate the grief of those who lost someone, the cynical attempt by liverpool to re write history makes mad to this day.

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me too.....21 and on the last gate on the south stand (lep end)

Many drunk, knife pulled on me 3 times on the day, spat at numerous times and offered £20/30/50 numerous times.

I know what happened, I was there watching it unfold. Watch your jimmy mcgovern drama documentaries and read all the books you like but whatever you do, dont let the liverpool fans re-write history.

yes -the ground

yes syp

but dont let anyone tell that the liverpool fans had nothing to do with it, they were one of the worst sets of fans in the country. Ilike asteneer I went to anfield in the 80's and saw people done with stanley knives and everthing else.

It affected me for years, there for the grace of god and all that, but now I can come to terms with it all, and appreciate the grief of those who lost someone, the cynical attempt by liverpool to re write history makes mad to this day.

a 'domino effect' (of mistakes/catastrophes/wrong-doings) HAS TO START SOMEWHERE !

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Tthe Lep was below capacity when the crush occurred... Problem was the central pens weren't closed off so everyone herded into them. Similar thing happened with Spurs in 1981 apparently, but that time they shut off those pens in time to prevent deaths although people still had to climb the fences to escape.

It happened with other teams at Hillsborough and elsewhere. I just can't see how Liverpool can be called murderers when pure luck meant it didn't happen to another team.

And the Wembley silence was also for Morosini, so doubly sad that Chelsea couldn't just show some respect.

I don't think anyone in this thread has called them murderers.

Of course they didn't intend to kill anyone, they just wanted to watch their team and were prepared to do what was required to make that happen. They were also trying to make a point that they were too big for the Lep after they weren't given the Kop.

It's a shame the internet came along a bit too late, as the intentions of some of their fans would have been on forums etc for all to see.

Yes the policing and stewarding could have been better to prevent what happened, i.e. closing the tunnel to the central pens. However if it wasn't for the crush outside at the turnstiles, the exit gates wouldn't have been opened to prevent people being killed there.

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My Uncle was caught up in the crush. As a result he's not been able to work a day since.

He's tired of everything that's surrounded it since.

He just wants it all to be over, truth, savoury or unsavoury as he doesn't believe the dead can rest or families can move on whilst ever it's used to whip up a frenzy in the media.

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So weren't you two turnstyle operaters interviewed for the Taylor Report?

yes mate I was. 9 hours of tv footage where you had to point out where you were and who you were helping. (I was on the pitch) Also had to attend police investigation at those union offices in town (berlins roundabout?) on an august bank holiday and a number of visits to snig hill for various ID purposes.

The info was all 'matter of fact' as opposed to blame, not sure the opinion of a 21 year old student/turnstile operater would have carried much influence at the time anyway

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