How to build ourselves decent squad

[malek]

Key principle in economy is that the biggest risk is refusing to take any risks - and we refused to gamble sooo often.

Trading water, and replacing likes of O'Connor with Sedgwick, etc... will do us little or no good.

If we stay in this league, or get relegated we need to take bit of a gamble, and take our chance on lads from Premiership academies, Leagues One and Two, SPL, Irish league, abroad, etc...

And it is key to promote our club as one who have faith in, and will give chance to young talent deemed good enough. In time we will become one of favored destinations to youngsters who are not yet good enough to cut it among the best.

Why should we do this, and not bring in players who proved they can do it in The championship you ask ?! Because we can't ! We can't compete neither in wage nor in transfer fees department to bring in those considered as "Championship" class, and who can make real difference at this level - so we must find them elsewhere. Signing those that are let go by more ambitious sides is simply setting for mediocrity, and admitting that we can't do better. On the other hand, these signings don't have to be seen as bad moves in all cases, as in all honesty we will need players who can do "mediocre" job at whatever level, but these must bee considered as a short term solutions, and paid accordingly.

Those that we bring in should be sign on deals where performance/achievement bonuses will make large part of players contract, and we wont reward failure any longer...

It is key to establish scouting network, and it should be seen as investment, as any scout who can spot and recommend players with potential will earn money for this club.

Academy structure and McAuley's work there should be heavily revised too. For club in our situation academy is supposed to be source of potential first team players, and finance itself to at least some extent, and our is not doing so...

[markowl]

I'll let scram come and pull this post to pieces, I can't be arsed.

[malek]

Just to add one more point:

I think when it comes to signing players we heavily overlooked one thing - character. Our lot has enough talent to spend a season without getting in a touching distance with relegation, but it seems just like they don't mind loosing games enough. Like they have a mental setting along the lines of "We did our best, it will be better next time". We need those players who will get pi55ed off if they lose a game even if they are supposed to be underdogs in a said game, and will stay angry until next Saturday where they will try even harder simply because they hate loosing that much ! Not only that, but they will pull rest of the team with their desire. I think that kind of mental setting comes even before skill. There are plenty of "these kind of" players, but sadly we doesn't seem to have any.

[Guest Stereophonics]

I agree with everything you are saying, especailly about taking on youngsters so that we become known for giving good young players a chance.

I have no faith that it will happen.

[scram]

Malek knows i disagree with the gist of this and i won't keep covering old ground

But a couple of things

If it was that straightforward then every club woulod do it

If those young p[layers are that good then they wouldn't be getting released - the majority of the best of them will end up in the conference if they are lucky

We do need to revamp our scouting, recruitment and academy - but the immediate 1st team problems are not easily solved by unknowns and kids

[malek]

My point was not so much about youngsters (although I'm quite sure we will miss out on few that I marked good enough to myself), but that we can't compete for quality Championship proved players.

We can't sign proven Championship quality, and are refusing to gamble on those that can emerge as ones (although they never played in this division), or those that could develop into ones.

Where does that leave us ? Signing mediocre and poor players all the time, trading water and replacing like for like, and even if we do survive this season, fearing relegation year after year, after year...

[Guest Stereophonics]

We never seem to find cheap unknown players, e.g. like Reading did with Long and Doyle

[Glaser]

We never seem to find cheap unknown players, e.g. like Reading did with Long and Doyle

Brunt ?

Whelan ?

Bougherra ?

Grant ?

[Guest Stereophonics]

Maybe with Brunt and Whelan but I think that most people had heard of Bougherra and Grant

[scram]

Barry Corr?

[Glaser]

Barry Corr?

aint he now at Exeter ?

Might be playing him next season

:st2: :st2: :st2:

Ps: didn't Sturrock absolutely rave about him when he signed him ? ?

[malek]

Come on Scram - going by this route those who don't live up to expectations will be in larger number than those who exceed them. But that is the nature of the beast. Sadly it doesn't look possible to improve on what we have without taking such measures.

It seems that we are not looking for those gems in the rough, we had hardly any confirmations of players on trial here, etc...

If we continue like we do, we will get relegated. if not this season, than season after that, and if not...

[TbagMcgraw]

I really don't think we've taken enough gambles on non-league players and players that have consistantly performed in the lower leagues.

The only player playing non-league football that we'd plucked from obscurity was Grant Holt! Now don't get me wrong but I really don't think we gave him anywhere near enough of a chance, he arrived mid-way through our relegation season from the Championship and played a majority of the run in but must have been quite stressful for him (didn't he core the an own goal against Brighton which relegated us or something, possibly gave away a penalty), wish in a way we'd kept hold of him (especially with next season looming).

I'd love to see us re-linked with Richard Brodie at York who's had another great season.

[scram]

Yes - but it has to be targeted - you can't just invite every player released form every academy and sign them for a season to see how they get on - similarly you can't just keep signing players ad hoc from lower level clubs - there is a finite amount of players that can be signed - and of those the vast majority have to work

It's a great idea in principle but not one that readily reverts to practice - because there will be a high attrition rate - liken it to the Turner years - yes we may have found Brunt/Whelan et al - but we also had to discard reams and reams of utter dross - and meanwhile the team plumetted ever downward - i still pay thanks to Rushden and Diamonds for being bottom than us

The alternative is to scout - to network - to find when/where players are being released - to cultivate relationships - to re-enthuse our own academy with fresh ideas and personnel - but that's a longer haul and in the meantime we have to take care of front-of-house - ie what goes on that pitch and out of those players the majority have to be players who can be relied on - not players we've gambled on

Edited April 14, 2010 by scram

[malek]

Yes - but it has to be targeted - you can't just invite every player released form every academy and sign them for a season to see how they get on - similarly you can't just keep signing players ad hoc from lower level clubs - there is a finite amount of players that can be signed - and of those the vast majority have to work

And where did I state that we should invite every player released from PLA or from lover level clubs ???

I agree with you in principle, as I said far to many times, but you still show need to make it clear how we can't sign "every" PLA player, etc... Why is that ?

I watch academy and reserve football every week (one or two games). 90% percent of players I've seen there were complete pap, but there are those who look decent enough, who have something about them and should be scouted on regular basis.

Why do I feel if I give anyone at the club name of promising youngster they will blink with their eyes and ask - who ?! (not that I would ever contact club about it, though).

The alternative is to scout - to network - to find when/where players are being released - to cultivate relationships - to re-enthise our own academy with fresh ideas and personnel - but that's a longer haul and in the meantime we have to take care of front-of-house - ie what goes on that pitch and out of those players the majority have to be players who can be relied on - not players we've gambled on

And I agree with most of this, but it will take ages to set in motion, and players we brought in as "reliable" are failing week after week, and are slowly getting us relegated...

[Glaser]

I love these malek - Scram love ins

[scram]

And where did I state that we should invite every player released from PLA or from lover level clubs ???

I agree with you in principle, as I said far to many times, but you still show need to make it clear how we can't sign "every" PLA player, etc... Why is that ?

I watch academy and reserve football every week (one or two games). 90% percent of players I've seen there were complete pap, but there are those who look decent enough, who have something about them and should be scouted on regular basis.

Why do I feel if I give anyone at the club name of promising youngster they will blink with their eyes and ask - who ?! (not that I would ever contact club about it, though).

And I agree with most of this, but it will take ages to set in motion, and players we brought in as "reliable" are failing week after week, and are slowly getting us relegated...

You didn't say that - but without having a structure on place that we can target the players how else do we do it?

Draw lots - random phone calls? I'm not taking the pee but how do we do it without knowing which players we are looking at?

The alternative is as i said in the 2nd part of my post - but you cannot go from where we are to where would like to be overnight

I watch academy/reserve and triallists every week - as well as watching what i can on telly - i have recommended players (currently it's players who subsequently sold for about £15m ) - had rows about players - been right - been wrong

It's a minefield and at the core is the current 1st team - and that MUST be competitive which is why managers will always go for what they consider reliable players

Look at our policy over a decade - nearly all our signings have been either young/unknown/academy/reserve and/or lower league

And look what is happening

[trevdi9]

in my view there are gems out there

and in such things as mallek says there is some truth and i tend to agree with him .

in my beliefe some of these gems develope at a later time than others and often go unoticed by the system .ie case in point ,john oster played in the same team as i did in skegness.this player at a young age was nothing special,but at that time hawked his self round the clubs and to cut it short ended up in the prem at one bit and did well .but the gist of it is maybe some lads are let go before reaching true potential or as it were havent been discovered yet as they are late starters and are bypassed

but then again i don't dissagree with scram either

hope this makes sense regards

[malek]

So, to make it clear to me:

Actually you agreeing with me, but you don't believe we have personnel to identify such players

[scram]

So, to make it clear to me:

Actually you agreeing with me, but you don't believe we have personnel to identify such players

I agree with the principle - always have done for a club like us presently

I think the reality is that it is longer term and you're right it takes a whole different approach - and usually diferent personnel

Adding everything together for a club like us it's not gonna solve our present and immediate future - and it's a big gamble

There has to be a transitional period - and i'm all for that starting today - but events on the pitch will still be taken care of by more established players.

BTW - i'm surprised you're not a closet Watford fan - good developer of players - most visionary academy in the country, sign lower league, Irish and Scottish players - great relationship with some of the country's biggest clubs and personalities - brilliant scouting network....