laws' legacy

[mcmigo]

Yeah, those 100 games of consistent form is such flimsy evidence when it's up against the unassailable 'he was rumbled'. And it only took two and a half years.

Try again.

For once DJM is on the money.

The legacy Laws left us was 3 mid table finishes (an average finish of 12th in his time here doesnt get more midtable) achieved on a budget fit only for the local gasworks under 9's team, absolutely no leadership or direction from above, and achieving the largest transfer balance of any manager in our history. Laws up to October consistently effectively lifted us somewhere between 6 and 8 places higher in the league than we had been since 2000.

We then started this season well, outplaying most sides we faced, then suddenly went down the bottom in a way not witnessed since the beatings towards the end of our Premiership days. Despite AI grinding out some ugly wins, we continue to be rubbish and are in the exact same position as when Laws got sacked.

Something went wrong in October that two highly rated managers, a number of quality coaches and assistants, and a very motivated Chairman have been unable to remedy.

[pgmetcalf]

It wasn't too long ago that the fans were shouting Brian Laws Barmy Army and Brian Brian give us a wave

[Brownlad]

It wasn't too long ago that the fans were shouting Brian Laws Barmy Army and Brian Brian give us a wave

true

coincided roughly with the time when Laws was our manager.

[DJMortimer]

Beg to differ, DJM. To me your relentless defence of him seems almost a case of "he doth protest too much" ... ?

You cannot escape the FACTS of the results for two whole years. There simply was no slow, inexorable decline. You are making it up to save face.

Never once did I feel comfortable with him at the helm - along with many others it seems - sure, I congratulated him and the lads on here when we got victories that warranted such accolades, but that was rare.

The guy was/is a chancer. We've all known them in life. Billy Bullshit.

I think you're mistaking the nature of my cause. I'm not trying to suggest Laws is a great manager or that he didn't make plenty of mistakes, simply that this petulant witch hunt against him is founded largely in the imaginations of a few people rabidly seeking a scapegoat. You suggest that his incompetence slowly took root in the squad and that was his downfall, but the statistics dating back two whole years PROVE no such thing happened. My opinion that something behind the scenes changed abruptly (and without further information we don't know how much blame Laws must shoulder for that) has way more evidence than any of the counter arguments put forward so far.

I was reminded of Laws' ability the other day when during some match a respected pundit - can't recall who but a respected ex player - said "You should NEVER do a substitution at the time of a corner."I seem to recall BL doing exactly that a few times. And we usually ended up conceding ....

Go on, tell us another. I bet he told players their dog had died just before kick off and stuff like that didn't he?

[Guest boro owl]

He's easilly the best manager we've had this season. He did a fantastic job at Wednesday in untenable circumstances. The folk who blame him for our current woes are beyond belief. It might be more comfortable to blame a far away figure and continue in the belief that those in charge now ar great, but it's codswallop. We are where we are because over the last two months we have not been good enough to get away from it. We have a manager who doesn't understand players and who can't motivate them.

The bloke was rumbleing useless. End off. Spent what ever money we had on poo poo players. Its totally down to him the trouble we,r in now. We should have got rid of him 18 month since, maybe then who ever replaced him would have had a chance at keeping us up. There,s not a manager alive could make a team out of that sad bunch.

[DJMortimer]

The bloke was rumbleing useless. End off. Spent what ever money we had on poo poo players. Its totally down to him the trouble we,r in now. We should have got rid of him 18 month since, maybe then who ever replaced him would have had a chance at keeping us up. There,s not a manager alive could make a team out of that sad bunch.

You did well to type that while you were stamping your little feet.

[nippyowl]

true

coincided roughly with the time when Laws was our manager.

flip me You are on some serious form today.

[Cpt_Hatstand]

I think, DJ, the answer is obvious

given our great run of form when Irvine first came in and our subsequent regression to the mean, we need to sack Irvine and appoint a new manager.

If we do this twice more this season, we will end up with around 10 wins, which would shoot us up the table.

LEE YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO

ah! The QPR model...

[M Royds]

Wasn't this about the time of the AGM?

Laws came across incredibly nervous, and he - and Lee - clearly sensed that the audience was not prepared for any more of Laws' platitudes and cheeky-chappie wisecracks/sound-bites - especially ProZone bullsh*t.

What changed was that he was rumbled. Simple as.

"You can fool some of the people all of time, and you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can't ....." (I'm sure we're all familiar with the rest) ... :-)

I agree. He was rumbled, not only by the supporter but possibly by the players, (if you believe the Leon comments on the train, which was varied by different supporters)?

This October nonsense and the rapid decline is a fallacy. The other stats like when was the last time BL had back to back wins, how many wins did he have in that year, the rolling current form of the 2009, need to be also taken into consideraion.

October was probably Laws's perfect storm culminating in his poor signing, poor form, poor tactics, pool planning, poor use of scarce resources, poor scouting, poor man mangement, poor sound-bites etc, all coming to fruition at once.

There's lies damn lies and statistics.

It's the economy table position, stupid!

[Guest simo]

Look at the players he left us with and the contracts HE awarded them before he left. Prime examples being Tommy Spurr and Marcus Tudgay. We're stuck with these for YEARS to come. Spurr especially knew what he was doing when he signed up, he knows he's not good enough in this league. At least Wood had belief in his own ability and held out for a move.

[Bannofan]

I'm not sure how many facts or how much evidence DJM has to post before before the loonies accept that Laws , overall, did a good job here and took us to some very acceptable league finished considering our budget.

Scram has backed the argument , also concluding that something went badly wrong in October, also pointing out that Laws worked with a negative transfer budget.

OK, Laws probably cannot be called a great manager..I could also accept some people arguing that he was no more than average..but we had an average squad so that argument goes nowhere.

Laws made mistakes with his loan signings and transfers, but so did Sturraock and so have ALL football managers up and down the leagues.

Obviously we are looking for someone to blame, but the truth is the players have shown in glimpses, in whole matches even, that they have the ability comensurate with a mid table side. Why they are constantly underperforming despite a change in manager, is a mystery that remains unsolveable.

[DJMortimer]

I agree. He was rumbled, not only by the supporter but possibly by the players, (if you believe the Leon comments on the train, which was varied by different supporters)?

What he allegedly said backed me up actually, referring to the leaked document and it's demotivation of players in the last year of their contracts.

This October nonsense and the rapid decline is a fallacy.

Well yes... but only if you ignore the absolute, stone cold, granite hard facts and rely instead on good old fashioned prejudice, bitterness and imagination.

It's over. Give it up. You're embarrassing yourself now.

[M Royds]

What he allegedly said backed me up actually, referring to the leaked document and it's demotivation of players in the last year of their contracts.

Well yes... but only if you ignore the absolute, stone cold, granite hard facts and rely instead on good old fashioned prejudice, bitterness and imagination.

It's over. Give it up. You're embarrassing yourself now.

So the document is to blame for our sudden dip?

Could you tell me about what happened for the rest of 2009?

Not prejudist at all, Brian's a nice bloke.

As I said he will find his level in two years! (Mark my words)

[Handball_!!]

Can't believe this debate is still raging

To me the 'single event' was the way Wood leaving was handled - I'm an outsider and I thought it was pretty bad, he must have been popular around the dressing room and this must have affected the first team players. Remember they would all be looking at it from a players perspective.

I think if there was a moment when BL 'lost the dressing room' that would have to be it.

[DJMortimer]

So the document is to blame for our sudden dip?

Could you tell me about what happened for the rest of 2009?

Not prejudist at all, Brian's a nice bloke.

As I said he will find his level in two years! (Mark my words)

I have only pointed out the potential implications of what that document contained and how it might fit with the tangible results we saw. The poster below mentions another issue that might also have played a significant part. I have stated repeatedly that it might not even be a single event but an accumulation of them. Whatever, I have done 5 different tests and all 5 point to the same conclusion of a sudden change.

What happened for the rest of 2009? I've broken it down into ten game spells that are remarkably consistent as is obvious to just about everyone else not afflicted with your particular brand of foaming at the mouth insanity. There is no remotely similar anomaly to explain.

Can't believe this debate is still raging

To me the 'single event' was the way Wood leaving was handled - I'm an outsider and I thought it was pretty bad, he must have been popular around the dressing room and this must have affected the first team players. Remember they would all be looking at it from a players perspective.

I think if there was a moment when BL 'lost the dressing room' that would have to be it.

As I stated elsewhere, his transfer listing and public berating occurred on 29th October last year, just two games into the spell that ended Laws' tenure. Even though it seems to me he deserved what he got, the players may not have seen it the same way and failed to win for another 11 games immediately following it.

[scram]

Whatever happened with Wood - i don't see how the club could have acted much differently tbh

Player promised to renegotiate on favourable terms - reneged - club wouldn't bow to his demands

Whatever anybody says i always said it was a potential powderkeg going into a season with so many players coming out of contract.

But again - as with Wood - it's an easy situation to recognise but not so easy to tangibly deal with

[Jim]

When you're working on a really tight budget, you need someone who can spot players with talent for next to nothing and hopefully work with the players on the training ground and hopefully create a team that has cohesion, ability and the drive to push on to achieve something, not to too dissimilar to what Sean O'Driscoll has done at Donny.

Laws for me never showed any of these qualities and as a result has left us with a rag tag and bobtail outfit who look certainties for relegation at this moment in time. What frustrates me is as a club we carry on making the same mistakes time and time again. We don't act fast enough when it comes to changing managers and when we do make the change we always seem to go for the safe, cheap and unimaginative option. Laws should've gone after the 4-1 defeat at Watford, it was obvious to anyone watching that match that the players had lost confidence in the manager and the manager cut a forlorn clueless figure on the touchline. Danny Wilson wasn't sacked after the 8-0 hammering at Newcastle and that basically condemened us to relegation from the prem and I fear once again we've got the timing wrong and we're going to pay the price with relagation.

We had an opportunity when Laws was sacked to go for something different like a young, imaginative foreign coach in the mould of Roberto Martinez or Paolo Sousa. It hasn't done Swansea any harm appointing these type of coaches, has it? but no we go for Alan Irvine. He kept Preston up and got them into the Play-Offs the following season and I personally think LS went for him in the hope that he may repeat the trick with us? He may do but at this moment in time it looks extremely unlikely.

In the last 10 years we've gone for the same safe option and these same safe options have brought players into the club that have driven us to despair at times. Money's tight I know and as a result it restricts what you can bring in but there has been some money available. Jewell buying Ashley Westwood and Steve Harkness, Yorath buying Kuqi, Laws buying Jeffers Clarke and Potter. Sturrock and Turner didn't do too bad with their funds but they weren't immune from making clangers in the transfer market.

This period has been a hard one for any Wednesday Fan to stomach and not surprisingly it's testing the patience and love that any Wednesday Fan has for his/her club. I've already renewed my ST for next season and the thought of watching League 1 football again fills me with dread but unless this current bunch of players find the desire and application needed to win football matches on a regular basis which seems unlikely then it's going to be the 3rd tier of English Football again?

I'm complaining about the club making the same mistakes over and over again but perhaps I'm guilty of doing the same thing by buying my ST every year?

[M Royds]

October was probably Laws's perfect storm culminating in his poor signing, poor form, poor tactics, poor planning, poor use of scarce resources, poor scouting, poor man mangement, poor sound-bites etc, all coming to fruition at once.

I have stated repeatedly that it might not even be a single event but an accumulation of them. Whatever, I have done 5 different tests and all 5 point to the same conclusion of a sudden change.

Yipee!!!!!!The penny dropping, at last

Edited March 1, 2010 by M Royds

[DJMortimer]

Yipee!!!!!!The penny dropping, at last

Is your head on upside down or something?

Remember that analysis I did of ten games at a time for the last 100 games? I've converted it into a graph (points earned in each 10 game spell on the vertical column). Observe the relative consistency and see if your myopic eyes will allow you to see the unprecedented and sudden slump I was referring to?

Edited March 1, 2010 by DJMortimer

[RolandWaddle]

Not having a pop at you Galaa but just as a sign of the way things go sometimes:

Wednesday Sign for something around £500k+ Kuqi - Very hit and miss and not universilly loved by the supporters.

Ipswich get him for next to Nowt - Scores loads of Goals and signs for Blackburn in Prem when his contract runs out who sell him for 2.5m one year later.

Is it that he was a bad signing or we didn't manage to get the best from him?

I'd also say that some of Law's Signings have been pretty good seeing as he had no money to spend (I'm taking Jeffers out of the equation as theres a lot of debate about who signed him), certainly no worse than Sturrock or Turners, the problem is it's very difficult to achieve consistency when your taking a chance on ability in the hope that your're signing the next David Hirst / John Sheridan / Chris Waddle etc.